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Alan

Debtors to the Jews.

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You are not rightly dividing this at all. The carnal things referenced by Paul is the "certain contribution" talked of in verse 26. The reason for giving the contribution is verse 27b.

 

Whoa on there a moment. I'm not taking either side, doctrinally, but that comment was ungracious and uncalled for. Not to mention completely unnecessary.

Salyan,

I understand what you are saying. I was responding to the post by Genevanpreacher given earlier in the same day. I thought it was called for and necessary.

In order to develop a better gracious spirit I will strike out that quote.

Alan

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I just get back on and you want to lock this thread?

Hmm. You're gonna hurt my feelings doing that my friend. 

Let's look at your OP...

"Debtors to the Jews"?

Yes we are indebted to the Jews. The Jews who rejected everything about God and his truth. The truth that leads to everlasting life. The life that God has always wanted for Jews, Gentiles, and Israelites, and anyone who will believe in the Lord with all their heart and gain a foreverness in eternity, time without an end, with the One who created all things? Jews, who rejected the Lord Jesus, as a people, not a nation, and crucified him in disobedience to the commands of God. Yes, he died for them, and sin, and for all of us. Yet God used them, through their sinful ways, to bring salvation to the rest of us through their own denial of God and the very words of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The indebtedness we owe is because they denied the holy one.

I do not rejoice in that for them. Their own weakness of the flesh is not something you should be rewarding them for, Alan.

God doesn't.

This is not in plain old opposition to or against you Alan. I am sincerely answering your OP.

I care for Jewish people, as well as anyone else, who are lost. It is a natural thing for a Christian. So please don't take this as a 'hate' issue, or a racial issue. Because it is not.

What should be a 'hate' issue, is supposed fellow Christians using rude phraseology to make another brother seem ignorant because our beliefs are not the same. Sometimes I might seem 'mean' to you in your posts. I am sorry I get in the flesh, along with my spirit, sometimes. It is a defense mode, from all the trash out there that I have been fighting against for years. Your denial of my 'knowledge' of the scriptures borders on edge, with me, as I am sure my denial of your knowledge does to you.

I think we could learn to accept the fact that we just don't 'jive' together.

I am at peace with that.

But iron does sharpen iron, does it not? :D

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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What's a shame is those who go to opposite extremes on this issue. There are some who deny any good from Jews or that they even deserve to hear the Gospel. There are others who believe the Jews can do anything they want and we should give them 100% support no matter what. Some go so far as to appease Jews as to declare they don't need to hear the Gospel so we shouldn't upset them by sharing the Gospel with them. These folks teach God will save all the Jews in some special manner, not through the Gospel. Pastor John Hagee is one of the most prominent ones who teaches this. Interesting that his coming to this teaching only occurred after he became heavily involved in pro-Israel politics and desired the support of political and Orthodox Jews.

Jews need to hear the Gospel as do all others. Those who support supposed Christian outreaches to Israel/Jews should keep this in mind. Many of these "Christian" groups don't share the Gospel when they aid Jews. Only a few do, and those are the ones any support should flow through. What good rice in the pot and a sweater on ones back without ever hearing the Gospel?

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To quote a friend of mine - Rubbish!

This may be like "taking a dog by the ears" but it was "GP" who started the disrespect with this very first post in this thread, and a mocking tone in several posts thereafter. I agree with you, Brother Alan: I know that you know that God deals with individual Jews as to their personal salvation, so that every Jew, just like every Gentile, will go to Heaven Or Hell depending on whether he/she trusted Jesus as personal savior.

Somebody said something about Israel being the "Olive tree"; I don't know but I've always been taught that the "budding of the fig tree" represents Israel's restoration as a nation in 1948 and was an indication that the END is near, I believe it is.. But the main thing to me is this: God says in His word that he will CURSE those that curse Abraham and his seed. That covers the earthy seed(the Jews) and spiritual seed(us). so I'm just going to obey God and speak well of his people. I don't have much money for "support" but it's the least I can do. The only Jew I can recall knowing personally was a nice lady, who did some business with my FIL, and she invited my wife and I to stay at her townhouse in West Palm. We did so, and it was very nice. She later told us that she got saved. Thank you, Phyllis; I'm at least "indebted to" one Jew.

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The disrespect and the mocking tone of Genevanpreacher has caused me to ask the moderators to lock this thread. While I had to endure the disrespect and mocking I am the one who was publicly chastied for telling the truth while Genevanpreacher was allowed to mock me and belittle the Jewish race.

I am still requesting that this thread by locked.

Alan

 

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I have not once 'mocked' or 'belittled' the Jewish race Alan. I have spoken the truth from a scriptural view point. There is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile. God's word says that plain and clear. If the idea that we should be taking care of the Jews, or supporting them as a nation, where is the concern from the Apostles and their teachings on that subject. Not in the verses you have been quoting from.

Look into Romans chapter 10 -

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Is that not serious enough of a statement, from Paul? He was not looking for the Jews to get saved in the future as a nation.

What about this -

Romans chapter 9 -

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Paul was immensely concerned for their salvation during that time. 

If there were to be a time in the future that 'all Israel would be saved', why would Paul wish himself 'lost'?

There is more to what you are not pointing out in this subject Alan.

Closing the thread is an option. But you do not answer the seriousness, in front of those reading right now, the falacy of lifting up the Jews to a place of idolatry in Christendom.

We are to support the poor, and preach to the lost, no matter who they are, and what race they are of.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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Brethren,

I want to thank all of you for the the discussion in this study. As a Benediction, to conclude my presence here, I would like to give you the Aaronic Blessing, Numbers 6:22-27, in song.

May God bless you all.

Alan

 

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Even the prophetic writings often referenced with regards to pre-mil rapture and what follows indicates that not all Jews will be saved. Rather it states that two-thirds will perish while one-third finally recognizes Christ as their Saviour. If a time is coming at the end when two out of ever three Jews will die without Christ that should be a mighty prompt for taking the Gospel to lost Jews. A few ministries do that, many more think it's enough to give some form of support to Jews or Israel, and there are a few which outright say the Jews don't need to hear the Gospel because God is going to save every Jew by a special act outside the Gospel.

There are many dangerous teachings out there regarding the Jews besides those already mentioned. There are actually some Christians who believe if they can help promote a great war between Israel and others that will force Christ to return sooner.

Even today there are still some who teach that no more Jews can be saved because they are "Christ killers" and cursed now and forever.

Look at how our own media distorts what's going on in Israel and the Middle East and it's clear to see dangerous ideas and agendas abound.

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Brethren,

I want to thank all of you for the the discussion in this study. As a Benediction, to conclude my presence here, I would like to give you the Aaronic Blessing, Numbers 6:22-27, in song.

May God bless you all.

Alan

 

Absolutely beautiful!

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The context of Romans 9-11 is the nation of Israel.  The following is a brief excerpt of an expository teaching on Romans 9:

Romans Chapter 9--Introduction

Chapters 9-11 of Romans form a unit. The subject matter of these three chapters is the nation Israel (see 9:3-4; 10:1,21; 11:1-2,26,28). These chapters are also somewhat parenthetical. The flow of thought could have gone from chapter 8 right into chapter 12. In the first eight chapters Paul has set forth THE GOSPEL OF GOD, that is, the good news of JUSTIFICATION (Romans 1-5), SANCTIFICATION (Romans 6-8) and GLORIFICATION (Romans 8). In chapter 12 he deals with the practical implications of the gospel (how the truth of the gospel ought to affect our daily living toward God and toward our neighbor). Thus chapter eight would flow naturally into chapter 12, but instead of doing that Paul gives us a three-chapter parenthesis in which he helps us to understand where the nation Israel fits into the purpose and plan of God.

This section begins with GREAT SORROW (9:1-3) and it ends with a GREAT DOXOLOGY to God (11:33-36). One simple way to think of the three chapters is as follows:

Chapter 9 deals primarily with Israel’s PAST (as God’s chosen and privileged people).

Chapter 10 deals primarily with Israel’s PRESENT (as a nation which has refused to submit to God’s gospel).

Chapter 11 deals primarily with Israel’s FUTURE (a nation which someday will be saved and which will enjoy the fulfillment of the new covenant promises).

In order to understand this section we need to try to put ourselves in the shoes of those who lived in the first century and to try to understand the JEWISH PROBLEM.

Fact #1--The Israelites are God’s chosen people (Deut. 7:6-9; Romans 11:28).

Fact #2--God promised His chosen people that they would enjoy a glorious kingdom under their Messiah (Dan. 7:13-14; Isaiah 2:1-5; 9:6-7; 11:1-9; Jer. 23:5-8; 31:31-37; 33:14-16; Luke 1:32-33).

Fact #3--The nation Israel (at least the great majority in the nation) rejected their Messiah when He came to earth (John 1:11; Matthew 12:22-24; Matthew 21:33-46; 27:22, 23, 25; John 19:15; Acts 22:22; 1 Th.2:14-15).

Fact #4--When the church first began it was made up entirely of Jewish believers (Acts chapter 2, the Day of Pentecost). But gradually this changed. As the years went by more and more Gentiles entered the church and less and less Jews (we see this as we travel through the book of Acts and also as we span the years of church history). Today (and this has been true for most of church history) the church is made up almost entirely of Gentile believers. We thank God for Jews who have believed on Christ as Messiah and as Saviour, but their numbers are few. The nation as a whole is blind though, thankfully, there are a few exceptions (see Romans 11:25).

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