What is your position on music and why?

[Heir of Salvation]

The above rendition of Psalm 23 was written by John Rutter at Cambridge University.

He's an Atheist.

He writes some of the most respected and renowned Sacred Music of the modern Era played anywhere.

I sang this at the University of Florida under a doctoral student of his named Will Kessling.

[Heir of Salvation]

Let me throw you for a loop:

Here's a (very good) Blue-grass/folk band from Britain called "Mumford and Sons".

Now, it's just Blue-grass, and no harm done, but it's secular and self-glorifying. let's compare two songs:

And here's an early nineties Christian"Punk-Rock" Band, With a song called "I question it".

Listen to the lyrics, and tell me which of these two bands TRULY comes closer to glorifying God and speaking truth in music.

Tell me if ANY hymn in YOUR hymnbook speaks as directly and powerfully directly against sin as this band's lyrics do in this song:

[Ukulelemike]

"And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour."  (Acts 16:16-18)  

  There is such a thing as, Good message, Wrong messenger. A rock song can bring a good message in the words, but the messenger, the music style, associated with rebellion and sin in and of itself, is a poor messenger, which is why CCM is generally associated with compromising Christianity, and ecumenism.

Here is one to consider.  P.O.D. is considered one of the more popular CCM Rock bands. Here is a song they did for a movie. have a look, let's see how glorifying it is to God.

[Heir of Salvation]

"And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour."  (Acts 16:16-18)  

  This Scripture is utterly irrelevant and gratuitous.

It mentions zilch about music.

It says clearly that she was possessed and un-saved.

It states that Paul exorcised the demon........

It says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about music.

I'm sorry, but, you've ignored Scripture altogether here.  This is as relevant as the stink of my dog's breath when she sneaks into the trash.  Music isn't even mentioned in this passage, To convince a congregation that is is even relevant to the topic at hand would be to lie to them horribly.

If you CLAIM to believe the Bible, than let the Bible speak about music when IT chooses to. Not when you WANT it to Don't take passages of Scripture which don't even mention the topic and create out of whole-cloth a doctrine which isn't there.  That isn't preaching the Word...It's preaching U-Mikeism.... and that is wrong.

Did I miss the part in my KJV where she was singing odes to Krishna with a harp?

Did I miss the part wherein the early believers swayed to her music while she skillfully ensnared them with her dulcimer?.....

Maybe she used a Ukelele, an instrument used by Polytheistic heathens.  Is that the "wicked" instrument she used in her vile conjurings??? 

There is such a thing as, Good message, Wrong messenger. 

So, if a "good message" comes from the wrong source you ignore it?

Is that your position?

So, then, if an evil Polytheistic devil-worshipper used his Ukelele (to pick something at random) to sing a children's song about how 2+2=4 is his message now moot?  Do you tell your children that it's false?

Is his mathematical computation void of value since he used an instrument (by any measure) used, invented by, and mastered by a heathen culture void of value?

Here is one to consider.  P.O.D. is considered one of the more popular CCM Rock bands. Here is a song they did for a movie. have a look, let's see how glorifying it is to God.

That song is absolute junk.

What's your point?

You can find one example of garbage and subsequently you can summarily dismiss any music, by any artist vaguely attached to the same genre?.

Oh, o.k.

Let's do a syllogism of your argument:

1.) There is at least one horrible example of the misuse of music in one particular genre

2.) This is that example

Therefore:

ALL music attached to that genre is necessarily a "misuse" and wrong?

 

Is that what you are saying?

Good thinking.

So, am I now permitted to find any one example of any form of music and summarily dismiss all music made in that genre whole-sale and forbid it?

Nice 

No more hymns from my Broadman hymnal will ever be sung in my Church, because there are some Theologically inaccurate and false statements there.....

I'm gonna have a hey-day with this!!

 

 

 

 

[EKSmith]

"And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour."  (Acts 16:16-18)  

  There is such a thing as, Good message, Wrong messenger. A rock song can bring a good message in the words, but the messenger, the music style, associated with rebellion and sin in and of itself, is a poor messenger, which is why CCM is generally associated with compromising Christianity, and ecumenism.

Here is one to consider.  P.O.D. is considered one of the more popular CCM Rock bands. Here is a song they did for a movie. have a look, let's see how glorifying it is to God.

thank you Mike ,many folks are drawer into this

 

 

 

 

 

 

forgive me brother mike I'm on my windows phone it goes crazy sometimes. I would like to thank you for the post. God bless borther

[EKSmith]

Heir of Salvation,what you quoted to me was of brother Jordans post. I'll not answer for him .but will answer my post but I will not with any type of I'll intent argue nor debate it.

God bless

[Ukulelemike]

  This Scripture is utterly irrelevant and gratuitous.

It mentions zilch about music.

It says clearly that she was possessed and un-saved.

It states that Paul exorcised the demon........

It says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about music.

I'm sorry, but, you've ignored Scripture altogether here.  This is as relevant as the stink of my dog's breath when she sneaks into the trash.  Music isn't even mentioned in this passage, To convince a congregation that is is even relevant to the topic at hand would be to lie to them horribly.

If you CLAIM to believe the Bible, than let the Bible speak about music when IT chooses to. Not when you WANT it to Don't take passages of Scripture which don't even mention the topic and create out of whole-cloth a doctrine which isn't there.  That isn't preaching the Word...It's preaching U-Mikeism.... and that is wrong.

Did I miss the part in my KJV where she was singing odes to Krishna with a harp?

Did I miss the part wherein the early believers swayed to her music while she skillfully ensnared them with her dulcimer?.....

Maybe she used a Ukelele, an instrument used by Polytheistic heathens.  Is that the "wicked" instrument she used in her vile conjurings??? 

So, if a "good message" comes from the wrong source you ignore it?

Is that your position?

So, then, if an evil Polytheistic devil-worshipper used his Ukelele (to pick something at random) to sing a children's song about how 2+2=4 is his message now moot?  Do you tell your children that it's false?

Is his mathematical computation void of value since he used an instrument (by any measure) used, invented by, and mastered by a heathen culture void of value?

That song is absolute junk.

What's your point?

You can find one example of garbage and subsequently you can summarily dismiss any music, by any artist vaguely attached to the same genre?.

Oh, o.k.

Let's do a syllogism of your argument:

1.) There is at least one horrible example of the misuse of music in one particular genre

2.) This is that example

Therefore:

ALL music attached to that genre is necessarily a "misuse" and wrong?

 

Is that what you are saying?

Good thinking.

So, am I now permitted to find any one example of any form of music and summarily dismiss all music made in that genre whole-sale and forbid it?

Nice 

No more hymns from my Broadman hymnal will ever be sung in my Church, because there are some Theologically inaccurate and false statements there.....

I'm gonna have a hey-day with this!!

 

 

 

 

So what you are saying is that no scripture can be used, except for those specifically referencing music? So by that logic, smoking is fine, LSD is fine, internet porn is fine, because the Bible doesn't reference those things. You need to learn to understand and apply the Bible to your life, because it covers everything, even those things that didn't exist then.

My point, which I am sure you know but ignore, is that this woman was speaking absolute truth in this case: those men were, indeed, the messengers of the most High God, bringing the way of salvation. Nothing wrong with her message., The problem was, as you said, she was not a believer, she was lost and because of her character, she was not the right messenger for the message. She had ulterior motives.

So CCM performers have ulterior motives: to bring everyone into 'unity', to break down "barriers" of denominations and doctrines, and ultimately, to bring all believers under Rome. They have no discernment in where they perform, who they perform with or for, many participating right alongside Catholics and Charismatics and anyone else who will listen. They also have the motive of making money, and many, to use CCM as a springboard into secular rock music. The very group you posted, the Altar Boys, themselves very quickly watered down their message so they could find more legitimacy in the secular punk rock scene. It was the same thing I saw when I listened to such music as a young man-I liked Petra, but noticed as they made more albums, that the messages became more vague, and less and less did they have a distinctly different message or sound, until I really couldn't tell the difference between them. In fact, they were a primary reason I left that junk behind.

By the way, here is that fine Christian group you posted:

What a fine, clean-cut group of Christian boys. I'm sure you'd be pleased if one was dating your daughter.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I am reminded of when David played on the harp and the evil spirit departed from Saul, funny thing is... I don't remember mention of David Singing any words...

Looks like music WITHOUT WORDS can have spiritual effects.

 

[Heir of Salvation]

So what you are saying is that no scripture can be used, except for those specifically referencing music?

No, I'm saying it's o.k. to compare apples and oranges for the sake of a very general principle....

You were comparing apples to space-ships.

So by that logic, smoking is fine, 

It is fine, actually.  Nothing in ACTUAL Scripture states otherwise.

I know that the Popes of IFB-dom (like David Cloud) state otherwise, but, BIBLICALLY.....smoking isn't mentioned.  Not even remotely.

You aren't scaring me with this non-issue.

LSD is fine, internet porn is fine

No, those ARE mentioned in Scripture, actually.

If you don't know where, or how, it's not within my present purview to explain it.  But THOSE are mentioned.

Smoking?  No, not at all.  Not within a hundred miles.

My point, which I am sure you know but ignore, is that this woman was speaking absolute truth in this case: those men were, indeed, the messengers of the most High God, bringing the way of salvation. Nothing wrong with her message., The problem was, as you said, she was not a believer, she was lost and because of her character, she was not the right messenger for the message. She had ulterior motives.

And, by your logic, you would simply ignore her message altogether....That's your point.....Even if it were true, you'd ignore the truth behind it.

NICE! 

So CCM performers have ulterior motives: to bring everyone into 'unity', to break down "barriers" of denominations and doctrines, and ultimately, to bring all believers under Rome.

Huh?......Since when did we establish all of that????

Did you find this spelled out in your passage in Acts?

"All CCM artists are dedicated to the ecumenical prospect of bringing every believer into the auspices of Rome????

When did Rome enter the debate?  What are you talking about?

I know you personally hate CCM....But Mike's personal hatreds are none of my affair, nor are they the Scripture.  I don't care if you hate CCM or not.  Where did ROME come from?

Oh, I know......it's this "Contemporary Rock" band composed of Catholics:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8

It must be these "Contemporary Rockers" (Catholic) and their absurd song that brought Rome into this discussion....

They have no discernment in where they perform, who they perform with or for, many participating right alongside Catholics and Charismatics and anyone else who will listen. 

Of course they don't ........

Let's rephrase this with your preaching shall we?

Let's just chage "They" to Ukelemike and "perform" to preach....

Ukelemike has no discernment in where he preaches, who he will preach with with or for, many participating right alongside Catholics and Charismatics and anyone else who will listen.............

hmmmm........

Musicians are supposed to restrict all their musical performances to the particular brand of I.F.B. that you like?  Is that their calling? Musicians can't glorify or magnify God with their music unless it's in I.F.B. Churches is that it?

 It was the same thing I saw when I listened to such music as a young man-I liked Petra, but noticed as they made more albums, that the messages became more vague, and less and less did they have a distinctly different message or sound,

And this is why anecdotal arguments are useless...

That's wonderful that you personally hate/ don't care for/ dislike/ avoid/ urge against/ disapprove of Petra.....I liked Petra too....

But, after Greg X Volz left and the new band took form.....I didn't listen to them after they made the album "This means War" <- (Great by any measure).....and infinitely more Theologically sophisticated than any ..."and he walks with me and he talks with me, and he tells me I am his own" pablum in your hymnal....

I didn't like the newer Petra either.....

But, I don't throw out the baby with the bath-water.  I knew when Petra ceased to make good music and stopped listening. I didn't conclude that the entire genre must be trashed on account of one anecdotal event.  That's simply foolish.

But, Petra in their earliest decade and a half were absolutely BRILLIANT!  I don't cut off my nose to spite my face.

until I really couldn't tell the difference between them.

You couldn't....

I could.

Pure dumb luck I guess.

Even at their worst, I could tell the difference between Petra and Gun's and Roses or Aerosmith.

If you can't.....well.....I don't think this topic is quite your forte, because the differences are manifold and obvious.

In fact, they were a primary reason I left that junk behind.

Fine, leave that band behind.....that's your choice and your conscience.

Don't pretend that everyone else who actually is capable of distinguishing the difference between Petra and Warrant MUST THEREFORE do likewise.  That's not your business, and it's hardly Scriptural.

Hey I lost a lot of love for One particular Independent Baptist preacher once the Pastor of F.B.C. Hammond was outed as a perverted statutory power-rapist.......

I didn't stop listening to ALL I.F.B. preaching did I?

Did you?

If not, why not?

Were you able to understand that you take all preachers, all sermons, all churches one at a time and judge them on their own merits????

I'd hope so.  Do so with musicians too.....It's quite liberating.  Some music is good, some music is not good.  That's all there is to it.  No one style is inherently either "evil" nor "good" on it's own.

By the way, here is that fine Christian group you posted:

Yeah....I know who they are, Mike.  I know every song they made.

They were EXCEPTIONAL musicians who filled a very unique niche' in their time and place.

What a fine, clean-cut group of Christian boys. I'm sure you'd be pleased if one was dating your daughter.

Now, let me provide you  directly piquant Biblical passages which aren't completely irrelevant to what you just said:

1Sa 16:7

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outwardappearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

2Co 10:7

Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

 

These are RELEVANT passages, you see...............Yes, they looked preposterous........and like you, I simply laugh at their appearance in that photo.

Guess what, they are also big boys now, and they laugh at their appearance there too.  They were in their teens and early twenties....they were kids.

But, their music was solid.

I have been blessed listening to it.  And you've likely never sang any song in your Church as directly condemnatory of modern sin, directly addressed and roundly and un-compromisingly condemned like the one I posted.   Like that song by the preposterous-looking Altar Boys.

They took on  sin, named it by name and condemned it in absolutely NO uncertain terms.  What songs in your regular repertoire address those issues as pointedly as that huh?

It's a good song, whether they look stupid or not.

 

 

 

 

I am reminded of when David played on the harp and the evil spirit departed from Saul, funny thing is... I don't remember mention of David Singing any words...

Looks like music WITHOUT WORDS can have spiritual effects.

 

1.) Saying you don't remember mention of David singing words is an argument from silence (another invalid form of argument)......absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence or absence to the contrary.

2.) Not only does the failure of the passage to mention lyrics prove nothing, but, as you may know....David WAS a poet and Psalmist who wrote half of the sacred music (or lyrics) in the Bible.....

So, it actually stands to reason that David QUITE LIKELY DID sing while playing for Saul.....Why assume there were no words when he sang?

Is that what you think?

3.) By your very logic....the harp itself, (as a mystically powerful instrument) must, therefore, be an instrument imbued with special powers capable of driving out demons, as we have only the properties of the harp to go by.

 

C'mon man.....

THINK

[John81]

Thanks be to God for INDEPENDENT churches which are free to choose their own course regarding music.

I've never been in a church where I liked or agreed with every song they use. Typically, unless the congregation gets together and agrees on only a few songs they all like and they only sing those, there are always those in a church who like some of the songs but not all.

Rather than thrash or trash one another over this issue, we could choose to address the matter in our own church, using the songs we prefer, even preaching about our music stance if we wish.

Some churches like to battle other churches over a pet issue, oftentimes music, but if another church confronts them over a different issue they scream no one has any business speaking about what they do in their own church.

If I was in a church which began using music I greatly disagreed with I would leave (if after speaking with the pastor it was clear that would continue to be their new musical choice) just as I would if I were in a church which used music I love but the pastor began preaching amiss.

At this time in America we still have Independent churches and we still have the ability to choose which ones to attend and which ones to avoid. Better to be thankful for that and tend to our own church home than to fight battles among churches which typically do more harm than good.

[Heir of Salvation]

^^^^^^John 81 ^^^^^^^

Ever the voice of reason....

Great post Brother! 

[EKSmith]

thanks mike , performers the right word.anyone whom performs ccm in the church is just that. I know a man that plays praise and worship that gets high before going on stage ,he says it helps his emotional condition before preforming in church.I've heard other stories of the like all referring to the emotions or should we call it charisma of the performer to have the power to allure or delight people with the music preformed.or just a emotion feeling such as a strong surge of feeling marked by and impulse to outward expression by bodily reactions such as the waving of arms eyes closed and many using satanic hand signs. All the ccm bands and musicians thrive upon it and not one is any different that the other. Their deception is very dangerous and we need to heed to such be prepared for it. It's already entering through the doors of some IFBC

Brethren, I've lived the truth of this decption which caused many years of heartache within the IFB church, ccm is the step into the door and much more follows with it. Many of my brothers and sisters whom I love very much have fallen away and there's still a hurt in my heart for them in my prayers . My hopes and prayers are one to support their pastor in prayer when he goes against and is rejecting ccm into the church.and put on the Armor of Eph 6:13-18 on fully prepared for the battle when the pastor allows ccm in the church.though we should wear the armor at all times not just for this cause. This is my position concerning ccm and I stand firm within it.

 

I've said enough and end it hear.

loving you with the love of Jesus from my heart.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ukulelemike]

Thanks be to God for INDEPENDENT churches which are free to choose their own course regarding music.

I've never been in a church where I liked or agreed with every song they use. Typically, unless the congregation gets together and agrees on only a few songs they all like and they only sing those, there are always those in a church who like some of the songs but not all.

Rather than thrash or trash one another over this issue, we could choose to address the matter in our own church, using the songs we prefer, even preaching about our music stance if we wish.

Some churches like to battle other churches over a pet issue, oftentimes music, but if another church confronts them over a different issue they scream no one has any business speaking about what they do in their own church.

If I was in a church which began using music I greatly disagreed with I would leave (if after speaking with the pastor it was clear that would continue to be their new musical choice) just as I would if I were in a church which used music I love but the pastor began preaching amiss.

At this time in America we still have Independent churches and we still have the ability to choose which ones to attend and which ones to avoid. Better to be thankful for that and tend to our own church home than to fight battles among churches which typically do more harm than good.

True, however, the question was what our positions were. I am in no way suggesting that Heir's church submit to my beliefs in it, nor, I assume, is he demanding the same of me. we disagree, that's fine. I just look at the exidence seen in so many churches, IFB included, where the music has gone contemporary, and so the church has followed into liberal, ecumenical doctrines. Not one or two, but many have gone that way. But again, if this is how the church he atends does business, that's well and good.

[TheSword]

It isn't about "neutrality"......it's simply that they are neither inherently "good" or "evil" they illicit emotions, yes, NONE OF WHICH are inherently Good or Evil, HOW they are reacted to is critical.  

Because Different Styles of Music can create Different Emotions....

Name one "emotion" which in and of itself is inherently evil in all applications, and...I'll concede your point.

So I've been out for the last few days and I haven't had time to read all the responses in this thread, so forgive me if this is something that's already been discussed, but I have to challenge you on this one here.

How about music that naturally evokes anger, hate, or rage? Unless you're angry over sin, the emotion itself is sinful. (cf. Matt 5:22 in relation to anger).

How about lust? I can't say I know of any verse in which lust is ok but there are a plethora of passages condemning it.

How about sadness? It didn't exist before the Fall brought sin into the world and won't exist in heaven. Can't imagine why you'd want to evoke an emotion that only results from sin.

Those are just a few examples. If you can come up with a scenario in which any of those three emotions are good and Christ-honoring to intentionally evoke, then maybe you'll have a case. Otherwise your assertion on neutrality fails.

[John81]

So I've been out for the last few days and I haven't had time to read all the responses in this thread, so forgive me if this is something that's already been discussed, but I have to challenge you on this one here.

How about music that naturally evokes anger, hate, or rage? Unless you're angry over sin, the emotion itself is sinful. (cf. Matt 5:22 in relation to anger).

How about lust? I can't say I know of any verse in which lust is ok but there are a plethora of passages condemning it.

How about sadness? It didn't exist before the Fall brought sin into the world and won't exist in heaven. Can't imagine why you'd want to evoke an emotion that only results from sin.

Those are just a few examples. If you can come up with a scenario in which any of those three emotions are good and Christ-honoring to intentionally evoke, then maybe you'll have a case. Otherwise your assertion on neutrality fails.

What music "naturally makes" a person feel certain emotions? We do have a choice in such matters.

One person can hear "creepy" music watching a show and get scared while another can hear that same "creepy" music but isn't creeped out by it.

Sadness can be a good emotion. Sadness can drive a person to their knees in effective prayer, or into action to help another.

None of this means I agree that all forms of music have a place in church or that anything and everything is good for a Christian to partake of. Just that with some music, how various people perceive and receive the music can be very different from how others do.

I hear a good bluegrass version of "I'll Fly Away" and I'm happy, praising the Lord and looking forward to our bright eternal future. Some others are too, while others are just so-so, some don't care for so they are a bit grumpy, and then there are a few who will become angry and condemn the music.

Amazing Grace didn't receive much good attention until it made its way to America and became a very popular song. Even today that song resonates more with Americans than any other people. Same song, Christians saved by the same Lord, yet different emotional responses, different feelings, different reactions.

Even tho I love Amazing Grace, I've heard it performed in music styles I didn't like at all. I've heard that song performed with instrumentation that I didn't think appropriate at all. I wouldn't listen to Amazing Grace played in those styles but I still love the song when played in a way that appeals to me.

We should also recognize the differences between songs specifically made for use in church services and those made for other purposes.