Free Will: An Atheist's Question

[Professor_Physika]

John81,

Again, you mischaracterize my position. There are fundamental differences in the statements "I believe there is no God" and "I don't believe there is a God". This difference can be more clearly seen in my position: I lack belief in a god or gods.

Lack of belief is not the same as actively believing in the converse position, this is Logic 101. In particular, as mentioned, it shifts the burden of proof towards the one making the positive claim, in this case being you. If my position was as you stated, I would have to actively disprove God which I can't do.

Thanks for listening 

[Miss Daisy]

John81,

Again, you mischaracterize my position. There are fundamental differences in the statements "I believe there is no God" and "I don't believe there is a God". This difference can be more clearly seen in my position: I lack belief in a god or gods.

Lack of belief is not the same as actively believing in the converse position, this is Logic 101. In particular, as mentioned, it shifts the burden of proof towards the one making the positive claim, in this case being you. If my position was as you stated, I would have to actively disprove God which I can't do.

Thanks for listening 

Amen! there's your answer right there! Quit fighting him and us and give your life to Him so he can use you for good and not evil.

[Professor_Physika]

Hi Miss Daisy!

I love your enthusiasm, but you have to understand the issue isn't nearly as simple as that for me as a skeptic. I can't disprove any gods, so should I accept them all as well? Perhaps you'd argue yes, but many of these gods are contradictory of each other which would throw me in a logical mess.

To better explain my position, I can't prove that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. Does this then mean I should be advocating for the Tooth Fairy's existence and defending her against dissenters? Of course not! I don't accept that the Tooth Fairy exists due to a lack of evidence, but I also don't advocate that she doesn't exist in light of the same lack of evidence because I understand that the general rule of thumb "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" holds up (there are cases that can be made for discrepancies, but that's off topic). This is directly analogous to my non belief in the Christian god.

But thanks for the comment  

[Miss Daisy]

You're not on here trying to disprove any other religion's gods, only ours. Instead of trying to make us prove to you God does exist, why don't you ask Him to do it instead? God is obviously stirring your heart FOR him but your flesh/ sin nature is fighting Him. Do you have any real Christians in person in your daily life, work, school or family? 

[Professor_Physika]

Hi Miss Daisy,

As stated repeatedly, I'm not trying to disprove anyone's gods. It can't be done as I've also said repeatedly and which you quoted me on. However, as for my lack of focus on other gods, this can be obviously explained by being on a website dedicated to the Christian god. Therefore this would likely be an inappropriate venue for discussion of, say, Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Ra, or Buddha.

To answer your question, I have inquired to God to reveal Himself to me repeatedly in church and in the privacy of my own home. Unfortunately I was not granted an answer as far as I can tell.

I can only guess at what the term "True Christians" means, but I can say I attend a Baptist church and my family is Southern Baptist. Some of my friends are Christian as well, although their denominations have more variance to them.

[No Nicolaitans]

 

Lack of belief is not the same as actively believing in the converse position, this is Logic 101. In particular, as mentioned, it shifts the burden of proof towards the one making the positive claim, in this case being you. If my position was as you stated, I would have to actively disprove God which I can't do.

 

Again with "logic"...

Here's your logic. You admitted to believe in evolution. What do you base that belief on?

Have you personally performed each and every experiment (from each of the sciences) that supposedly proves evolution and the beginning of the cosmos?

Did you personally make sure that all of the instruments were calibrated prior to performing each and every one of the experiments?

Did you personally ensure that fresh standards were used (if needed) for the calibration of all of the instruments needed to perform each and every experiment from each of the sciences?

Did you personally follow standard procedures while performing each and every one of the experiments from each of the sciences?

Can you verify whether a proper chain of custody was followed (to avoid contamination and tampering) in bringing you any samples used for each and every experiment that you personally performed from each of the sciences?

After you performed each and every experiment from each and every one of the sciences, did you record the actual and truthful results of each experiment and publish your findings?

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. The answer is "no" to each question. Therefore, you are accepting (by faith) what you have been told about evolution and the beginning of the cosmos without even proving whether it's true or not. Therefore, you're a logic-hypocrite. You're not using logic at all; all that you're doing is choosing (with free-will) what the object of your faith is.

Your logic is very faulty, and you are actually living by faith.

As has been mentioned, discussing anything other than your need for salvation is fruitless.

Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23a
For the wages of sin is death;

Revelation 20:14-15
14   And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15   And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Romans 6:23b
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1   Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2   By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3   For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4   And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Romans 10:8-13
8   But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9   That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10   For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11   For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12   For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13   For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[Professor_Physika]

Hi No Nicolaitans! 

I believe I should clarify my position on evolution for this to be a fruitful discussion: I accept that the majority of scientists in the relevant fields accept that the theory evolution is the best current example for explaining the present biodiversity on the planet.

This is simply a factual statement given the influence the theory has in the relevant scientific fields. As for evidence I have directly observed or research I have conducted for myself, I have none (besides the adaptation we see when our pesticide is, at first, very successful and then less so as the immune generations thrive).

However, is this faith? Or is it at least faith to the point of what you seem to be implying? The evidence I have read about (which is how most science is communicated) has also convinced me as to the theory's validity (although my opinion is of little importance to scientists until I'm actually one myself). Furthermore, if you want to argue that accepting this evidence from a second-hand source is faith, then fine, but I argue that it is distinct from the faith you seem to imply it is. The evidence could of course be incorrect due to the majority of scientists being either inept or biased (it's happened), but that's why I "accept" science tentatively and with the knowledge that it might change.

To take you example even further, I have never observed Pluto directly. Yet we supposedly have pictures of it, research on it, books about it, and so on. So I'm forced to either accept that scientists are under a grave misapprehension or there is a massive conspiracy to shield the truth from the public. I think we can confidently say that Pluto exists though and if you wish to label this "faith", then fine, be my guest, then I have faith. But most Christians seem to think they have actual justification for believing in their god and that is what I'm here to investigate.

If you'd like to discuss evolution, I have a dedicated topic called "Opinions About Evolution?". Thanks  

[John81]

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

If you don't believe God exists you believe there is no God. Scripture speaks clearly to the condition of such as hold to such a view.

Professor,

This is very simple and clear. God makes it all very easy. Either you believe or you don't. There is no middle ground. When Judgment Day comes Jesus won't quibble with you about how you define the matter. If you have not believed God and been born again in Christ, you will be eternally lost and tormented.

There won't be a quiz on evolution or the definition of atheists (not a single atheist will exist on Judgment Day!) or one last chance to get it right. Continue to deny God, continue to reject salvation in Christ, and just as you currently stand condemned already, you will stand on Judgment Day before God drops you to your knees and you confess that Jesus Christ is Lord before being sentenced to eternal, burning torment.

Today is the day of salvation, you may not have tomorrow.

[Professor_Physika]

Hi John81,

Yes I agree: either I believe or I don't. My position is I don't believe, not I believe there isn't- but we've already had this discussion.

But, again, you won't convince me through unfounded assertions. As a skeptic, I expect that claims such as you've laid out actually be substantiated before I accept them as truth.

Thanks

[No Nicolaitans]

As I have stated, I'll not have any discussions with you.

You can paint it any way you wish, gloss it over if you wish...but the fact remains (and you have just admitted) that you are using faith.

You are placing your faith in something that you also admitted is only an example for explaining life, its diversity, and its origins. That's all you will ever have, because evolution cannot and will not be...observed. Therefore, evolution isn't...science. Evolution falls under "natural science". Therefore, if it can't be observed, it's not science. That alone should cause you to question your object of faith.

You are placing your faith in something that you also admitted to have only read about.

You have also admitted that the only observed research that you have personally been involved with proves adaptation...not evolution.

You put your faith in an ever-changing "book" that is proven wrong by it's own "writers" as new "chapters" are written that show previous "verses" to be wrong...even though they claimed to be true when they were written.

I have a book authored by one Person, a book that never changes, and a book that has never been proven wrong and will never be proven wrong. The same truths that were recorded in it thousands of years ago still hold true today. History has validated the truths of this book. Archaeology has validated the truths of this book. SCIENCE has validated the truths of this book.

Seems awfully logical to accept something that has been proven to be true.

You need to get saved Professor. You need to repent of this foolish logic that has you blinded to God and headed to an eternity of pain and torment in the lake of fire. You're a sinner, and as a sinner you will die and go to hell. Then, one day in the future, you will stand before God and be judged. There will be no excuses, no second chances, and no pleas of mercy will help. You will be cast alive into the lake of fire where you will spend eternity. Your only hope is to accept the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection as the payment for your sins.

Professor, the Lord Jesus Christ loves you. He died for you, he was buried for you, and he rose from the grave for you.

Read it ---> http://john3verse7.weebly.com/

 

[Professor_Physika]

Hi No Nicolaitans,

As mentioned, I have a dedicated thread evolution if you wish to discuss. I know you state you don't wish to have any discussions, but I do believe that's what we're engaging in at the present. However, I would like to stick to the purpose of this thread, namely the syllogism I laid out and the issues therein.

Thanks  

[Professor_Physika]

Hi all,

This post is going out to every forum I have commented on. I have come to the conclusion that my presence is most likely unwanted and unappreciated. I came to this forum under the pretenses that I would be able to enjoy serious discussions concerning theological issues rather than simply being told that my motives are suspect, I am a liar, I am filth, etc etc.

I hold no ill will towards anyone here and understand that these are your sincerely held beliefs. Unfortunately, the negative reception I have received makes me all the more reserved in my thoughts about being honest with those who don't know my beliefs.

I hope my presence has not caused any undue secession amongst your ranks and I now respectively depart from this site. I will attempt to delete my account, although a moderator may be required to do that. If this is the case, I ask that it be done.

Good day to all and thank you for the answers I've received.

[John81]

That would be the Holy Ghost pressing on your conscience calling you to Christ. Nothing is more important than the state of your soul.

[Saintnow]

This "no free will" argument is one of the tactics atheists use to claim self-justification by blaming God for their actions.  Another "blaming God" argument they use is "if God is omnipotent, why doesn't he stop evil?"  The atheist is always trying to justify himself as good enough to be exempt from punishment in death which is Hell and the Lake of Fire.  All they are doing is trying to convince themselves that the Hell they are falling into is really not there.  I believe Christians could have a lot more impact for the gospel if more of them today were able to take the lead away from the atheists in the philosophical discussion of life.  Life is knowing God, not a chemical reaction with no objective meaning.  We have the word of God and the words of atheists should be trying to catch up to us, not us trying to catch up to them as they use their rehearsed lines that have been repeated and pushed so much in public media and education.

[Saintnow]

1. Hi Miss Daisy,

As stated repeatedly, I'm not trying to disprove anyone's gods. It can't be done as I've also said repeatedly and which you quoted me on. However, as for my lack of focus on other gods, this can be obviously explained by being on a website dedicated to the Christian god. Therefore this would likely be an inappropriate venue for discussion of, say, Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Ra, or Buddha.

To answer your question, I have inquired to God to reveal Himself to me repeatedly in church and in the privacy of my own home. Unfortunately I was not granted an answer as far as I can tell.

I can only guess at what the term "True Christians" means, but I can say I attend a Baptist church and my family is Southern Baptist. Some of my friends are Christian as well, although their denominations have more variance to them.

This condescending insult of "not trying to disprove anyone's gods" sounds like a devil's lie.  This is modern atheistic philosophy which is nothing but a complicated way of saying simple things.  The simple thing he is saying is that He denies God's right to rule over him.  It's a devilish argument against God; denying that God is good.   It is a hatred against God masked by intellectualism and manners.  He pretends to be nice while insulting all who believe in God at the same time he insults God by calling Him one of many gods.  The more I see this stuff, the more I think it's demon driven; it's full of hatred against God.

Of course God is not revealing Himself to the guy when the guy is in denial of God's right to rule over him.  Even though he is under death sentence for his sin, He refuses to admit God is righteous in execution of that penalty.  He wants to blame God or "nature"  rather than his own sin for his death.  He prefers to believe death is only something that happens and is not deserved, and he deserves to live and he deserves everything he can obtain or attain and nothing is a gift from God.   By convincing himself that it is no fault of his that he must die, he concludes that there is no justification for Hell so he believes Hell cannot be real.   The more I think about it, the more I think this is a demon driving the atheist,  and this modern atheistic mantra is well rehearsed and sold from Hell to people who buy it with pride...while the devil is directing them to the devil's Hell.

Evolutionary atheists often say things like "death is continuation of life, because we go to the dust and our organics are recycled in the circle of life".  This kind of thinking makes death into something that is supposed to be  beautiful, a beautiful event in natural life rather than the enemy  of life which it is in reality.  It's very similar to Hinduism's reincarnation philosophy, denying punishment in death and denying  God's eternal execution of the death sentence in Hell.