Opportunity Or Not

[wretched]

Please at least acknowledge that hindsight from the NT is also inspired scripture, Therefore it does directly speak to the issue. The fact that you cannot find what you are looking for in the exact way you want to see it from the OT does not in any way detract from the truth of NT teaching when it speaks to the same issue pointing back to the OT.

 

There are many many things that were only vaguely seen in the OT that needed clarification in the NT. To completely rule out scripture from the NT that explains the issue you were addressing simply because it is NT, is not rightly dividing scripture.

 

Pentecost has no relevance to this subject Wretched. It was a one time happing, never to be repeated. I don't understand why you even inserted it here.

 

Ok, one last time:

 

The verse you quote in context references certain jOB (s) God had for the prophets, nothing more. Had it been more than that it would have been recorded in the OT. No where does the Lord say in this context anything about new birth for these prophets. Nowhere is the new birth recorded in regards to the prophets, Moses or any OT saint neither in the NT or the OT. You misapply new birth out of context to this verse friend.

 

I say this in kindness but your posts are no surprise Jim, it is the same IFB (easy to explain and swallow) doctrine taught to new converts and children for decades but it has never been right.

 

Your statement on Pentecost as being irrelvant is pretty amazing however, but even that doesn't surprise me

 

Sorry guy, we just disagree, no biggy, who cares. Matter of fact, you get to win the argument...hows that?

[Genevanpreacher]

More hindsight from the NT is what you quote and unclear in total Jim. I challenge to you find one indication in the OT of this. Surely if the new birth for all that believe on Jesus 1- 4000 years before His earthly birth were truth, then there would be at least a hint of it in the OT.

 

What you quote out of the NT indicates that the writers God used to record the OT had the Spirit in them at the time and for the writing but this in no way indicates new birth, a sealing or the permanent eternal security we enjoy in our time friend. I most cerainly believe the Spirit indwelt certain people for certain purposes (this can be found in the OT) prior to Pentecost but this in NOT close to the same thing as Pentecost when God said He will "pour out HIs Spirit over all flesh"

 

Just a thought....

 

Since Jesus Christ, before he was birthed into humanity, was God, and Enoch 'walked with God' and God took him out of this life, assuming he went to 'be' with God, that kinda looks like he 'believed in the Lord with all of his heart', a true picture of a 'born again' person, it seems to me this is one instance.

 

The next one? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness? Sounds like a 'born again' person to me. (We are children of Abraham by faith?)

 

Just a thought...

 

[but this is from the view of one who doesn't, once again, follow the teachings of Dispensationalism.]

[DaveW]

What's the point John?

Any real discussion basically gets shouted down.

I simply don't have the energy right now to deal with those who are here on a proclaimed IFB forum who are determined to push plainly unbiblical - let alone anti Baptist - doctrine.

Until the false teachers are stopped from leading discussions, and whilst they continue to be allowed to constantly push their false teachings even after they have been shown to be false, there is just no point.

[wretched]

Just a thought....

 

Since Jesus Christ, before he was birthed into humanity, was God, and Enoch 'walked with God' and God took him out of this life, assuming he went to 'be' with God, that kinda looks like he 'believed in the Lord with all of his heart', a true picture of a 'born again' person, it seems to me this is one instance.

 

The next one? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness? Sounds like a 'born again' person to me. (We are children of Abraham by faith?)

 

Just a thought...

 

[but this is from the view of one who doesn't, once again, follow the teachings of Dispensationalism.]

 

I see that you are trying to relate no description of a new birth in these verses to the new birth clearly described repeatedly in the NT.

 

Realize these OT gents actually knew God in a literal sense and that should help any reasonable person with their belief. Albeit it did not help all of them or Israel much when God wasn't demonstrating His Presence and Power continuously and literally. They forgot quickly and turned to false gods as soon as trouble came. Makes sense when there was no indwelling Spirit - get it? It aint rocket science folks, it is actually pretty clear if you study the Word as a whole in chronological order understanding when and who passages are directed to, etc.

 

The only reason I post is to refute incorrect doctrine from condescending types on here who think they are learned because they parrot men's teachings, quoting one muttenhead's work after another. Seems many go to the greatest extremes to study everything but the Word.

 

I challenge anyone to put down these "merchandisers of God's" books/interpretations and study only God's Word for one year, turn off the tv, the radio and listen only to God's Word for a year. I guarantee you will abandon your current ideas on allot of subjects and I also guarantee your stands on the most important fundamentals will be strengthened greatly.

[John81]

Well, it would be nice if folks would stick to the point of the OP. If you would like to discuss other matters, please start another thread.

 

I'm really interested in the questions I've put forth and would like this thread to focus upon those.

 

Thank you.

[Genevanpreacher]

Sorry John.

[John81]

It's easy to get sidetracked and get caught up in bunny trails. I'm just trying to get us back on the main path.

[Jim_Alaska]

I'm sorry also John. I am prOBably quilty of being the first to get way off topic on your thread.

[EKSmith]

Brother John Thank you for posting this thread I often just read and wait to see which way the thread heads and mostly don't post for this reason .this is a good topic but just as many others it can go bad very quick and it appears to be headed that way 

I would like to share in fellowship Gods word on this Topic but I'm reading for now and pray others will have respect toward you and the topic you've begun.  most of all uplifting the Lord Jesus our savior.

 

God bless brother    

[Genevanpreacher]

For the sake of this discussion let us assume there is a coming special tribulation period and there will be a pre-trib, or perhaps a mid-trib rapture. No need to discuss those matters as that's the starting point here.

 

There are those who teach that once the rapture has happened (whether pre or mid, really doesn't matter) that anyone who had the opportunity to accept Christ prior to then, but didn't, will be unable to do so after the rapture.

 

At the same time, some teach anyone who hears the Gospel during the tribulation may be saved.

 

What is the biblical foundation for either view? (I've heard them both preached before but would like to see folks lay out their biblical reasoning for whichever view they hold to so we may compare and contrast; and hopefully come to a biblical conclusion)

 

This matter was brought to mind again by the new Hollywood version of the "Left Behind" movie. In this movie, and many others like it, there seems to be a conflicting message being sent and I believe this is very dangerous.

 

In these sort of movies it's typical for at least one pastor who was unsaved at the time of the rapture to be saved afterward. Usually at least one teen and the spouse of a saved person (both of which had rejected Christ prior to the rapture) come to Christ after the rapture. Yet at the same time most of these movies quote a verse of Scripture and say that anyone who heard the Gospel prior to the rapture can't get saved after the rapture. These movies seem to send a double message as it's clear in these movies the lost pastor, teen and spouse had all heard the Gospel, all seen examples of true believers prior to the rapture, yet they get saved after the rapture.

 

What does Scripture say about this and how should we respond to those influenced by these movies?

 

I will take a coupla days and think on this.

[Covenanter]

I rarely meet people who are specifically influenced by these films.

We were invited to watch the first one. We all found it slow moving and switched off. Then had a Bible study on the second coming.

I don't OBject to religious fiction based on history, but am very cautious about speculative interpretation of prophecy.

Thanks for raising the topic, John. I'll let you know if I have any encounters.

[John81]

In the area I live nearly everyone considers themselves to be Christian to one extent or another. Most of the churches range from secular to watered down and these especially love the outward appealing things of "Christianity". When Christian based or themed movies come out it's common for some churches to rent out a theater so their whole congregation can attend together. Others simply send busloads to the theater. The rest go as families, for youth group trips, etc.

 

Due to this, the Christian related movies have a big impact in this area and many Christians are heavily influenced by these movies. Considering the limited preaching many receive in church, what they encounter in these movies often forms their views in some areas. It's common for many pastors to base one or a series of sermons upon a particular Christian movie; not to highlight the truth of Scripture, but to expound upon the movie presentation itself.

 

I still encounter Christians will very faulty views they picked up from watching "Christian" TV shows like "Touched By An Angel", "Highway To Heaven", and others.

 

Unfortunately we live in a very pop-oriented culture that has a major influence even among Christians.

 

Whether from movies or TV shows, many people have the wrong idea that getting into heaven is easy, prOBable for most, can be done at the last minute, getting right with God can wait until after the rapture and one sees the anti-christ and people getting the mark of the beast, or that anyone not as bad as Hitler will either go to heaven or become an angel...

 

Just as many Americans knowledge of history comes from what they've seen in movies (which usually isn't accurate), the same is true for what many Americans think they know about Christianity.

[Covenanter]

I would make it clear that the "left behind" teaching of the film is not clearly taught in Scripture. What is taught is that Jesus is returning for resurrection and judgment.

NOW is the day of salvation. Don't believe what you see in the movies.

The Gospel command is to repent and trust in the LORD Jesus Christ for salvation. Reject the Gospel and you are lost - condemned already.

[John81]

I would make it clear that the "left behind" teaching of the film is not clearly taught in Scripture. What is taught is that Jesus is returning for resurrection and judgment.

NOW is the day of salvation. Don't believe what you see in the movies.

The Gospel command is to repent and trust in the LORD Jesus Christ for salvation. Reject the Gospel and you are lost - condemned already.

When someone starts talking of something from a movie as if it's fact I try to get them to recognize the movie isn't perfect, but the Word of God is. That can be a difficult point to get across with some people as they seem to believe a Christian movie "has to be true".

 

Then it's a matter of trying to convince them of the urgency of dealing with their standing before God now, rather than later. Again, another difficult point to get many to grasp. This is especially a prOBlem with the many who think, for false reasons, they are already going to heaven.

 

Another bad aspect to some of these movies is they have already been brought to a point of conviction and/or fear during the movie but seen in the movie how several made it anyway after initially neglecting salvation. Anything said now fails to reach them once they've already faced that conviction/fear and decided it's not an imminent matter.

 

While some good can come from some of these movies, and I'm thankful for that, it seems from my experience they tend to cause more harm.

[Genevanpreacher]

I am not a dispensationalist, as most of you know, so my view is prOBably different anyway.

 

First off I find the words 'ye' 'you' and 'your' in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, mysteriously

open to the thought that believers are there for all the 'bad stuff', so the 'normally' taught view

of Christians being raptured 'outta here' is questionable in my opinion.

 

Since I am of that slant, I view the Gospels are for the 'saved' not just the Jewish followers of Christ.

And a lack of there being described by the Lord Jesus anything about gentiles being raptured, outside

his description of the supposed return to gather Israel, as per dispensationalism, I view Christs return

as just like the words he uses in the above chapters.

 

And as it was in the days of Noe, and Lot? After their 'catching away/floating off' there were no survivors to repent.

 

Very interesting thinking though. Imagination can't compare to biblical facts for excitement.

Example: Read Matthew 25:1-13. When it came time for the Lords return, 5 'virgins' weren't ready til after the Lord came.

Then it was too late. He said he knew them not.

 

It is too late for people after the Lord comes back to get 'his'. Anyone after the 'return', are, and can never be, his.