Opportunity Or Not

[John81]

For the sake of this discussion let us assume there is a coming special tribulation period and there will be a pre-trib, or perhaps a mid-trib rapture. No need to discuss those matters as that's the starting point here.

 

There are those who teach that once the rapture has happened (whether pre or mid, really doesn't matter) that anyone who had the opportunity to accept Christ prior to then, but didn't, will be unable to do so after the rapture.

 

At the same time, some teach anyone who hears the Gospel during the tribulation may be saved.

 

What is the biblical foundation for either view? (I've heard them both preached before but would like to see folks lay out their biblical reasoning for whichever view they hold to so we may compare and contrast; and hopefully come to a biblical conclusion)

 

This matter was brought to mind again by the new Hollywood version of the "Left Behind" movie. In this movie, and many others like it, there seems to be a conflicting message being sent and I believe this is very dangerous.

 

In these sort of movies it's typical for at least one pastor who was unsaved at the time of the rapture to be saved afterward. Usually at least one teen and the spouse of a saved person (both of which had rejected Christ prior to the rapture) come to Christ after the rapture. Yet at the same time most of these movies quote a verse of Scripture and say that anyone who heard the Gospel prior to the rapture can't get saved after the rapture. These movies seem to send a double message as it's clear in these movies the lost pastor, teen and spouse had all heard the Gospel, all seen examples of true believers prior to the rapture, yet they get saved after the rapture.

 

What does Scripture say about this and how should we respond to those influenced by these movies?

[wretched]

I have heard both ways taught also.

 

I have see no Scriptural evidence to suggest those unsaved at the rapture cannot decide to believe and hold on until death or the end during the tribulation.

 

Now there is evidence that any who conform to the beast's economic system receiving the mark cannot be redeemed (I would guess most of the civilized world).

 

Evidence also points to an absence of the Spirit on earth during the tribulation so "new birth" "saved" "regeneration of the Spirit" won't exist (except for the 144K sealed jews). They will have to demonstrate saving faith by holding on to their belief and not receiving the mark until the end of the trib or their martyr.

 

thoughts?

[2bLikeJesus]

2 Thessalonians 2:8-11 (KJV)
⁸  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
⁹  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
¹⁰  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
¹¹  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

For this reason, I believe that those that show up to church only to find out that the majority of members have been raptured, will have no opportunity to immediately repent and be saved.

 

However, I do believe that those lost who had never heard the gospel prior to the rapture can indeed get saved during the tribulation.  That is the whole purpose of the 144,000 witnesses.  I also believe there will be a second rapture of those "tribulation saints" just before the final battle.  It is this 2nd rapture that many who hold to a "mid-tribulation" get confused about.  They do not realize there are two raptures, a pre-trib rapture of the church, and a 2nd Rapture for those saved during the tribulation. 

 

Yes...I have a lot of scripture for this, but trying to keep these initial posts on this subject shorter. 

 

Bro. Garry

In His will.  By His power.  For His glory.

[Salyan]

Evidence also points to an absence of the Spirit on earth during the tribulation so "new birth" "saved" "regeneration of the Spirit" won't exist (except for the 144K sealed jews). They will have to demonstrate saving faith by holding on to their belief and not receiving the mark until the end of the trib or their martyr.

 

thoughts?

 

I'll bite. If the Holy Spirit is unable to do His regenerative work, then no one can be saved. Anything else is a works salvation, and we know clearly that salvation is 'not of works'. I see no reason for this universal principle to be reversed during the tribulation era. The key verse for the Spirit being removed is "He that now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way."  Rather than that being an indication that the Spirit is not present during the tribulation (actually, He's God - how can He not be present?), I would see that to be an indication that He is no longer doing His work to hinder Satan (let=hinder), so that Satan is allowed free reign on the earth during this time.

[John81]

Great input so far. Eagerly looking forward to more on this.

[wretched]

I'll bite. If the Holy Spirit is unable to do His regenerative work, then no one can be saved. Anything else is a works salvation, and we know clearly that salvation is 'not of works'. I see no reason for this universal principle to be reversed during the tribulation era. The key verse for the Spirit being removed is "He that now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way."  Rather than that being an indication that the Spirit is not present during the tribulation (actually, He's God - how can He not be present?), I would see that to be an indication that He is no longer doing His work to hinder Satan (let=hinder), so that Satan is allowed free reign on the earth during this time.

 

Here is the deal on why I think this way: You touched on the removing of the Spirit evidence (notice I am not saying doctrine or being authoritative) but I am using preponderance of evidence which is good enough for the army and UCMJ.

 

The evidence I feel points to no regeneration of the Spirit in the OT and all the way up to Pentecost. I think Scripture points to new birth for believers on that day for the first time ever in Scripture.

Jesus Himself indicated that even His Apostles were not yet born again prior to Pentecost. "when you are converted, strengthen your brethren".

 

Notice I am not saying works but I am saying the Scripture overwhelmingly indicates that there was no regeneration of the Spirit, no new birth, no sealing of the Spirit prior to Pentecost. Certainly God saved only by faith but He also provided signs, wonders and miracles as helps prior to Pentecost. But nowhere in the OT or in Revelation is there a hint of eternal security, new birth, etc...

 

During the trib, Scripture indicates God will remove the Spirit from the earth and Revelation indicates signs, wonders and miracles will return but it also indicates that all will have to keep their faith until death or the end of the trib and NOT receive the mark

 

That is the nutshell and i wish I had the mental energy to write in more detail but it has been one of those days again and they have been getting worse and worse for several months (more involved working environment on the jOB).

[Jim_Alaska]

The evidence I feel points to no regeneration of the Spirit in the OT and all the way up to Pentecost. I think Scripture points to new birth for believers on that day for the first time ever in Scripture.

Jesus Himself indicated that even His Apostles were not yet born again prior to Pentecost. "when you are converted, strengthen your brethren".

 

Notice I am not saying works but I am saying the Scripture overwhelmingly indicates that there was no regeneration of the Spirit, no new birth, no sealing of the Spirit prior to Pentecost. Certainly God saved only by faith but He also provided signs, wonders and miracles as helps prior to Pentecost. But nowhere in the OT or in Revelation is there a hint of eternal security, new birth, etc...

 

 1Pet. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

We see here  that the OT prophets were indwelt of the Holy Spirit.

 

If they had the Spirit of Christ in them, they were saved. Once you are saved you possess eternal life. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life.”  It would not be eternal if it could be lost.

 

So I would have to refute the statement you made saying that, "nowhere in the OT is there any hint of eternal life."

[John81]

Considering the limited number of responses to the OP does that mean most folks don't know what to think?

 

What about how we respond to those who see these movies and bring this matter up?

 

How about all those who see these movies and walk away with the idea (whether new to them or validating an old belief) that when they see the signs of these things happening they will get right with God then? Please, if you can, go beyond the totally valid but so quickly dismissed by many, verse which makes it clear that TODAY is the day of salvation.

 

Far too many these days get their theology from movies so it's helpful to be prepared to meet them at their starting point.

[prophet1]

Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

[John81]

Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

What exactly are you addressing with this quote?

[Alimantado]

Five independent responses isn't bad going. 

[John81]

Five independent responses isn't bad going. 

It's a good beginning but considering how many here have a special focus on the end times, and how most of this board holds to the rapture and tribulation teaching, and many here are active in sharing the Gospel, I had hoped to have much more input and practical insight.

 

This Hollywood version of "Left Behind" will likely open many doors for some of us even while it creates confusion and perhaps presents false hope to millions. I'm trying to be prepared in advance.

[wretched]

 1Pet. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

We see here  that the OT prophets were indwelt of the Holy Spirit.

 

If they had the Spirit of Christ in them, they were saved. Once you are saved you possess eternal life. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life.”  It would not be eternal if it could be lost.

 

So I would have to refute the statement you made saying that, "nowhere in the OT is there any hint of eternal life."

 

More hindsight from the NT is what you quote and unclear in total Jim. I challenge to you find one indication in the OT of this. Surely if the new birth for all that believe on Jesus 1- 4000 years before His earthly birth were truth, then there would be at least a hint of it in the OT.

 

What you quote out of the NT indicates that the writers God used to record the OT had the Spirit in them at the time and for the writing but this in no way indicates new birth, a sealing or the permanent eternal security we enjoy in our time friend. I most cerainly believe the Spirit indwelt certain people for certain purposes (this can be found in the OT) prior to Pentecost but this in NOT close to the same thing as Pentecost when God said He will "pour out HIs Spirit over all flesh"

[Jim_Alaska]

More hindsight from the NT is what you quote and unclear in total Jim. I challenge to you find one indication in the OT of this. Surely if the new birth for all that believe on Jesus 1- 4000 years before His earthly birth were truth, then there would be at least a hint of it in the OT.

 

What you quote out of the NT indicates that the writers God used to record the OT had the Spirit in them at the time and for the writing but this in no way indicates new birth, a sealing or the permanent eternal security we enjoy in our time friend. I most cerainly believe the Spirit indwelt certain people for certain purposes (this can be found in the OT) prior to Pentecost but this in NOT close to the same thing as Pentecost when God said He will "pour out HIs Spirit over all flesh"

 

Please at least acknowledge that hindsight from the NT is also inspired scripture, Therefore it does directly speak to the issue. The fact that you cannot find what you are looking for in the exact way you want to see it from the OT does not in any way detract from the truth of NT teaching when it speaks to the same issue pointing back to the OT.

 

There are many many things that were only vaguely seen in the OT that needed clarification in the NT. To completely rule out scripture from the NT that explains the issue you were addressing simply because it is NT, is not rightly dividing scripture.

 

Pentecost has no relevance to this subject Wretched. It was a one time happing, never to be repeated. I don't understand why you even inserted it here.

[John81]

Please at least acknowledge that hindsight from the NT is also inspired scripture, Therefore it does directly speak to the issue. The fact that you cannot find what you are looking for in the exact way you want to see it from the OT does not in any way detract from the truth of NT teaching when it speaks to the same issue pointing back to the OT.

 

There are many many things that were only vaguely seen in the OT that needed clarification in the NT. To completely rule out scripture from the NT that explains the issue you were addressing simply because it is NT, is not rightly dividing scripture.

 

Pentecost has no relevance to this subject Wretched. It was a one time happing, never to be repeated. I don't understand why you even inserted it here.

A good example of the NT clarifying something from the OT is with regards to Lot. The NT lets us know God considered Lot a righteous man and he was vexed by the sin all around him. None of this could be known from the OT alone.

 

2 Peter

 

⁷ And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

⁸ (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)