Dispensations

[Jim_Alaska]

You didn't actually answer his question.

 

And he prOBably won't answer it Dave. He is simply parroting what he sees someone write. As we know, true Baptist doctrine came down to us through solid, sound Baptist churches, not message boards.

 

He's right on one point though. I have no experiance with other Baptist boards. My experience comes from sound Spirit led teaching in a real Independent Baptist Church.

[John81]

1 Timothy 4:6-7 King James Version (KJV)

⁶ If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

⁷ But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I persisted until 28 minutes when he said "there's not a baptist on this planet that tells his congregation they must accept Jesus as the Messiah."

 

How often do we need to post: 31 But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

The whole idea of assigning Heb - Rev to the Jews in the tribulation period is serious heresy. These inspired writers were writing to real, living people, encouraging & warning. He is expressing a highly questionable opinion rather than expounding Scripture.

 

I must revive the Hebrews thread.

you OBviously misunderstand 1) he is assuming you understand what the different ways God dispensations are.  2) All of scriptures is FOR our learning but not ALL scripture is written TO us. 3) The Doctrines of the Kingdom are for Israel but those same doctrines may have a spiritual application for us today. 

 

No where have a ever said that we cannot get application from all scriptures written TO Israel.  Just the doctrinal part.

 

Plus I in over 300 Pastors in Baptist churches, and a few hundred Baptist evangelist have never heard one time that any of these Baptist Preacher's ever tell any one that they must get saved by believing Jesus Christ is the Messiah.  I have heard them say you must by faith accept Christ finished work of the  substitutionary death on the cross, and that if you believe that then you need to ask him into your heart by faith and confess him with your mouth.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Actually, doesn't "the Christ" basically mean "the promised one", as in "the promised one that God sent to bring us redemption from our sins"? And "the messiah" means the same thing as well? So if I believe that Jesus is the Christ, am I not believing that he is the Son of God, the one that God promised all the way back in Genesis 3:15 to send to redeem me from my sins? How can I believe this and not believe that I am a sinner and need this redemption?And how can I believe that this historical figure that existed 2000 years ago was the answer to a 6000 year old promise from an unseen God to redeem mankind from their sin, if not by solely by faith? How can I "believe" it and not accept it? And so how in the world is this not resulting in salvation?

 

Sometime it almost seems to me like you're trying to split hairs on a bald man just for the sake of having a position no one else has.

 

I'm not trying to be ugly, nor am I trying to pick a fight, but your trail surely does double back over top of itself sometimes.

 

Just sayin'.

Christ means "anointed one" and "ian" means "one of another" which makes you an anointed one if you have believed on Jesus Christ atoning death on the cross for your sins, You are a "Christian"  Paul and Barnabas called them this first in Antioch Ceasaria.

 

It is RC traditional doctrine that the term Christian was a derision or a type of persecution toward the believers.  a false teaching many baptist accept as true.

[AVBibleBeliever]

You are right Dave. But what concerns me more about this person is his, or her, constant assertions that Baptists are incorporating Holy Roman Catholic beliefs in their doctrines.

you would be surprised how much the RC teaching is used to support baptist theological teaching.  such as, "John the beloved was dipped in pitch and then set ablaze and not burnt up they exiled him to Patmos".  and "that he died in the pulpit in Ephesus".

 

Both of these have no historical proof but are passed down through RC Traditions that the Reformation churches kept.  There is much more.  this is just a tip.  And the doctrine that you can just believe he is the Christ, the messiah or the son of God and you will be saved is another of those teachings.  You see the RC is a Israel replacement, their buildings are the temple or house of God.

 

Many Baptist will say "welcome to the house of God", or "isn't it great to be in the house of the Lord today".  Literally denying or at minimal confusing the doctrine that you, the individual believer, is the house of the Lord and the temple of God.

[John81]

 

[Jim_Alaska]

you would be surprised how much the RC teaching is used to support baptist theological teaching.  such as, "John the beloved was dipped in pitch and then set ablaze and not burnt up they exiled him to Patmos".  and "that he died in the pulpit in Ephesus".

 

This is not doctrine, it is heresay. I'd have to hear it with my own ears in an Independent Baptist Church. To date I have never heard it. I have never seen any Baptist theological teaching of this sort. It amazes me where people come up with this sort of nonsense and claim they hear it in "supposed" Baptist Churches.

 

So yes, you are right, I would be surprised since I have never heard it or heard it even from anyone else. It's just not in any of the credible Baptist history works I have ever seen.

[Genevanpreacher]

An interesting twist in a work written 'for' dispensationalism:  

 

"The “covenant of works” relates to Adam before the fall, and the “covenant of grace” relates to all men after the fall. It is based on the death of Christ. Covenant theologians, as most dispensationalists, teach that all men after Adam are saved by “grace through faith” in the finished work of Christ. We will later substantiate the fallacy and misconceptions of that claim."

 

Doesn't that mean 'dispys' teach fallacy?

[Genevanpreacher]

Another: 

 

The word “dispensation” is used in the Bible four times. In every case, it is OBvious from the context that God is referring to a period of time.

 

Is it? Or is it a dispensing of something? You know a giving out?

[Covenanter]

you OBviously misunderstand 1) he is assuming you understand what the different ways God dispensations are.  2) All of scriptures is FOR our learning but not ALL scripture is written TO us. 3) The Doctrines of the Kingdom are for Israel but those same doctrines may have a spiritual application for us today. 

 

No where have a ever said that we cannot get application from all scriptures written TO Israel.  Just the doctrinal part.

 

I know what he is talking about by "dispensations" but I reject them as a serious misunderstanding of Scripture. Did the Jews forfeit all their "kingdom promises" when they repented & were baptised in the name of Jesus? Do the unbelieving Jews retain the "kingdom promises" by refusing the Gospel & not joining the church of Jesus Christ? 

 

The tremendous thrust of Hebrews is salvation TODAY!

Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son

 

2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard , lest at any time we should let them slip . 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disOBedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape , if we neglect so great salvation....

 

3:12 Take heed , brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily , while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 

 

To which Paul adds:

2 Cor. 6:2 (For he saith , I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold , now is the accepted time; behold , now is the day of salvation.)

 

Plus I in over 300 Pastors in Baptist churches, and a few hundred Baptist evangelist have never heard one time that any of these Baptist Preacher's ever tell any one that they must get saved by believing Jesus Christ is the Messiah.  I have heard them say you must by faith accept Christ finished work of the  substitutionary death on the cross, and that if you believe that then you need to ask him into your heart by faith and confess him with your mouth.

Wow!! Either there is a very serious misunderstanding, or you belong to a heretical Baptist sect. Faith must be more than belief in the saving work of Jesus, & more than prayer & verbal confession. Faith is a living relationship with God, that gives eternal life. How often do we need to post: 31 But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

 

Why do we read in both Paul & Hebrews the word given to Habakkuk?

Hab. 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

 

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written , The just shall live by faith.

 

Gal. 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

Heb. 10:37 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

 

Hebrews 11 is a roll of honour of those who LIVED by faith. Try to understand: The just shall live by faith. The Prophets & Apostles are commending a living & active faith in the living God. The basis for our salvation is indeed Christ's finished work at Calvary, but belief & confession of that does automatically save. There is no salvation formula. We MUST be born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

......

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

 

Salvation IS everlasting life, lived by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

   

[MountainChristian]

dispensation: a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., especially as existing at a particular time.

[AVBibleBeliever]

This is not doctrine, it is heresay. I'd have to hear it with my own ears in an Independent Baptist Church. To date I have never heard it. I have never seen any Baptist theological teaching of this sort. It amazes me where people come up with this sort of nonsense and claim they hear it in "supposed" Baptist Churches.

 

So yes, you are right, I would be surprised since I have never heard it or heard it even from anyone else. It's just not in any of the credible Baptist history works I have ever seen.

yes you heard it.  But does the Bible say that?

 

revelation only says he was in the Isle called Patmos.  But being there for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ does not automatically equate exilement.  God could have called him there for the purpose of giving him the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ.  he was there for the word of God to receive it because he was the only one alive who had the testimony of Jesus Christ, meaning he was the only living apostle at that time of those who heard the Kingdom Gospel.

 

Rev 1:9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Now as far as any Baptist teaching it.  I heard it from my professors at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary (now Liberty University Theological Seminary and School of Religion).  I first heard it with my ears from Dr Harold Willmington at Liberty Bible Institute.  they teach the same up at Moody Bible Institute they always qualify it that it is a tradition but never tell you it is a RC tradition and that no one ever could prove that it ever truly happened.

[Genevanpreacher]

yes you heard it.  But does the Bible say that?

 

revelation only says he was in the Isle called Patmos.  But being there for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ does not automatically equate exilement.  God could have called him there for the purpose of giving him the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ.  he was there for the word of God to receive it because he was the only one alive who had the testimony of Jesus Christ, meaning he was the only living apostle at that time of those who heard the Kingdom Gospel.

 

Rev 1:9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Now as far as any Baptist teaching it.  I heard it from my professors at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary (now Liberty University Theological Seminary and School of Religion).  I first heard it with my ears from Dr Harold Willmington at Liberty Bible Institute.  they teach the same up at Moody Bible Institute they always qualify it that it is a tradition but never tell you it is a RC tradition and that no one ever could prove that it ever truly happened.

 

What? I got lost in here some where, somebody save me!

 

Oh, ok, nevermind, I remember now.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Salvation is faith upon the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. His substitutionary death upon the cross is the gospel Paul preached and gave

 

1Cor 15:1-4 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.   For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

That is the gospel Paul preached nothing more nothing less.

[AVBibleBeliever]

What?

we are talking about John being burned then exiled to Patmos.  follow the thread.