John Calvin Had It All Wrong

[No Nicolaitans]

Every explanation I've ever read of Calvinism specifically addresses this OBjection and says that what happens is that a man's inclinations are changed so that he freely chooses Christ and has no desire to do otherwise, not that his free will is removed.

 

 However, showing examples of people making decisions doesn't refute Calvinism, in m.o, since the system doesn't deny that people make them.

 

Here are verses proving that man has free-will apart from any influence from God whatsoever...

 

Hosea 8:3-4
3   Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him.
4   They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

 

Jeremiah 19:4-5
4   Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
5   They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, ,which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

 

Jeremiah 32:32-35
32   Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
33   And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
34   But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.
35   And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

[Alimantado]

Agree, though not strictly relevant to what I was talking about. :-)

[No Nicolaitans]

Agree, though not strictly relevant to what I was talking about. :-)

 

Oh...sorry...I misunderstood.

[DaveW]

Redefine free will and it fits perfectly with irresistible grace.........

[Alimantado]

Oh...sorry...I misunderstood.

 

Still good for the overall discussion, though. Those verses speak against predestination also, i.m.o

[Calvary]

Every explanation I've ever read of Calvinism specifically addresses this OBjection and says that what happens is that a man's inclinations are changed so that he freely chooses Christ and has no desire to do otherwise, not that his free will is removed.

 

Now it could be argued that this is a distinction without a difference since if man's decision-making is the result of something, such as his desires and inclinations, then that is not free will. But for me, this begs the question, if that isn't free will, then what is? To qualify as 'free will', does the decision have to have no basis at all? And then wouldn't that make it random?

 

The Heb 11:25-27 verse describes Moses making a decision based on an inclination he has: "Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt..."

 

Why would Moses hold the reproach of Christ in higher regard than the treasues in Egypt while the next man wouldn't? I don't think we're given an answer to that, whereas Calvinists think we are. However, showing examples of people making decisions doesn't refute Calvinism, in m.o, since the system doesn't deny that people make them.

 

Sorry "Fed", but I´m not following you too well.

 

I think you sort of say 2 things that are opposing each other.

 

Now it could be argued that this is a distinction without a difference since if man's decision-making is the result of something, such as his desires and inclinations, then that is not free will. But for me, this begs the question, if that isn't free will, then what is? To qualify as 'free will', does the decision have to have no basis at all? And then wouldn't that make it random?

 

?? Sorry but you´re not making sense. Maybe if you try again. What I am hearing you say is that free will is absed upon a man´s "inclinaitons", therefore it´s npot free will, then you say it´s really random, therefore there is no basis of free will.... ???????? Ya lost me bro.

 

Then you say that we really don´t know what Moses´inclinations were so we can´t say why my post refutes calvinism.

 

I think I was merely demostrating that men, the example is Moses, have a free will to chose what they deem fit, be it for good, or be it for bad. Moses chose his course, and he chose to follw God and it had nothing whatsoever to do with being over powered by the Holy Spirit thereby negating man´s choice in slavation. Which is exactly the foolish position of calvinism.

 

I stand by my post as being fairly simple to get.

 

God bless,

calvary

[Covenanter]

Does every example in Scripture of a person making an apparently free decision mean that everyone has complete free will to accept or reject the Gospel of salvation through Christ alone?

 

Perhaps Moses, seeing the Israelites in slavery, and knowing his providential protection as a baby, expected that he would be the means of deliverance. Perhaps he hoped to inspire a revolt, when he killed the Egyptian? Clearly it wasn't God's chosen time, & Moses abandoned his strategy, & fled into the wilderness.

 

God's chosen time came 40 years later, when He took the initiative at the burning bush, and God convinced an UNWILLING Moses to return to Egypt & defy Pharoah. Exo. 4:10-16 LORD, here am I, send Aaron. Moses needed a lot of persuading to do God's will.

[Alimantado]

I stand by my post as being fairly simple to get.

 

It was, Calvary. If I get time this week I'll try to explain my points better. Who's "Fed", btw? I'm Carl.

[DaveW]

Does every example in Scripture of a person making an apparently free decision mean that everyone has complete free will to accept or reject the Gospel of salvation through Christ alone?

Perhaps Moses, seeing the Israelites in slavery, and knowing his providential protection as a baby, expected that he would be the means of deliverance. Perhaps he hoped to inspire a revolt, when he killed the Egyptian? Clearly it wasn't God's chosen time, & Moses abandoned his strategy, & fled into the wilderness.

God's chosen time came 40 years later, when He took the initiative at the burning bush, and God convinced an UNWILLING Moses to return to Egypt & defy Pharoah. Exo. 4:10-16 LORD, here am I, send Aaron. Moses needed a lot of persuading to do God's will.

Not concerning the salvation of Moses.....
God persuaded Moses, not forced.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Just to make it clear, only those who have believed on Christ by Grace through Faith are predestinated and that according to the context of the KJV and no added interpretations of any particular group.

 

The ones predestinated in Ephesians 1:5 and 11 are those whom God Chose before the foundation of the world that knew would be in Christ by Grace through faith, hence the "in him" of verse 4.  the chosen were in him and you get put into him by the spirit when you through faith believe on him for salvation.  The father merely looked ahead to see who would accept the finished work of Christ on the cross for salvation and chose them to be predestinated.

 

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
 11 In whom also we have OBtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

 

And the same can be said about Romans 8:28 ,29.  the context is the Saints and you only become a saint if you have believed on Christ finished work of the Cross for your salvation. And the context goes all the way back to verse 1 where again was see it is those in Christ that are spoken of, not lost men but saved.

 

Rom 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
 17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
 26 ¶  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

The verses of predestinate and predestinated are Only for those who have believed on Christ finished work first then they become the predestinate and predestinated as part of their salvation.  the word Adoption is also in both sets of Verses from Ephesians and Romans and it only happens after a person has by grace through faith believed on Christ.

 

Only those in Christ are chosen to be predestinate and become predestinated.  Any other interpretation is not true to the word of God.  Predestinate and predestinated are works that happen to a believer once they are saved and not before.

[heartstrings]

 

Acts 24:²⁵ And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

 

Felix did resist the Holy Spirit - and a convenient season never came. There are many guilty sinners out there who have heard & understood - & rejected the Gospel. And no, they cannot blame the Holy Spirit for not quickening them. They have consciously & deliberately rejected Christ.  

 

John 16:⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

⁸ And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

⁹ Of sin, because they believe not on me;

¹⁰ Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

¹¹ Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

¹² I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

¹³ Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

Covenanter,

Above, you admit that Felix resisted the Holy Spirit. Being that the Holy Spirit is a person, namely God, then do you also admit that it was God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel and be saved?

[Calvary]

It was, Calvary. If I get time this week I'll try to explain my points better. Who's "Fed", btw? I'm Carl.

 

 

Thanks, look forward to it. Your screen name is almost the spanish word for "fed". I thought you might´ve known that - :-)

[AVBibleBeliever]

In the OT from Exodus to Malachi Israel rejected God the Father, in the Gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John Israel rejected God the Son, Jesus Christ, In Acts 1 to Acts 7 Israel rejected God the Holy Ghost.  Rejection is a willful process of heart and mind this willful process is known as free will.  This rejection comes from resistance of their hearts and minds to the word of God in the OT, to the person of the Son of God in gospels and resistance to the work of God by way of the holy Ghost in the first seven chapters of the book of Acts.

[Covenanter]

 

Felix did resist the Holy Spirit - and a convenient season never came. There are many guilty sinners out there who have heard & understood - & rejected the Gospel. And no, they cannot blame the Holy Spirit for not quickening them. They have consciously & deliberately rejected Christ.

 

 

Covenanter,

Above, you admit that Felix resisted the Holy Spirit. Being that the Holy Spirit is a person, namely God, then do you also admit that it was God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel and be saved?

 

Why do you use "admit" as if I were owning up to a crime ? Why not use "agree" ? Could Felix have used the free-will of his corrupt nature - dead in trespasses & sins to repent & believe? God cannot be accused of rejecting repentant sinners, nor can he be accused of condemning ignorant sinners who have never heard the Gospel e.g. the countless Gentiles before Pentecost.

 

Consider this:

John 19:¹⁰ Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

¹¹ Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

 

Acts 2:²² Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

²³ Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

²⁴ Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

The rejection & crucifixion of Jesus was according to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. Yet God CANNOT be accused of guilt in the rejection & death of his Son. Were they simply working to God's plan & therefore innocent? Of course not. They used their own sinful free will to try to shut out the Light of the world because light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

Is God insincere is his declared love & call to guilty sinners? Of course not.

John 3:¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ¹⁷ For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

There are truths that must be held in tension - in this thread, God's sovereign will - determinate counsel and foreknowledge - versus man's evil free will & action.

 

There are many questions, & not all are explicitly answered in Scripture. Calvin used human logic guided by Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit in seeking to answer them, and OBviously didn't & couldn't get everything right. He was a man. We also seek to use human logic guided by Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit in seeking to answer them.

 

[heartstrings]

Sir, I have no idea what you just said. Sorry I used the word ''admit''. My apologies. But would you please answer my question? 

 

 

 was it God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel and be saved?

 

Yes, or no?