Original Sin And Pelagianism

[Dr James Ach]

Does man really inherit a sin nature from Adam?

 

Does man have such a thing as a sin nature?

 

Why or why not?

Simple answer: Romans 4-5, Pelagian and Calvinists are both wrong. I'll be right back to destroy the remaining Calvinist comments

[Dr James Ach]

Calvin didnt kill Servetus, he didnt have the authority in Geneva to that kind of thing if he wanted to, heresy was a capital punishment in Geneva at the time and Servetus was tried by the the magisterial council of Geneva

I have an article on my website where we address this very pathetic excuse of John Calvin (that he "didn't have authority") 

Calvinists Defense of John Calvin on the Michael Servetus Ordeal

[Dr James Ach]

The onus is on you, I asked you to be specific in what you disagree with Calvin's doctrine.
As for the OP, that would be covered under the T in tulip, mans totally depravity because of Adam's, which we inherited from him

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity is not merely that man inherited a sin nature under the federal headship of Adam, but that man is totally UNABLE to respond to the gospel, hear the voice of God, unless he was elected and determined to be saved. Calvinists attempt to persuade people to accept Total Depravity by default by tricking them into thinking that a denial of total inability is a denial of total depravity, and since most believers believe that we all inherited our sin nature from Adam somehow, the believer that doesn't know any better swallows depravity hook, line and sinker because he doesn't know what the Calvinist REALLY believes about Total Depravity.

[Dr James Ach]

so, you don't have an answer. In my experience in the IFB, that was typical to separate from something you totally know nothing about

I'll give you the BIGGEST prOBlem that Calvinism has that proves that Calvinism makes God the author of sin regardless of whether their Dortian or Westminster Confession says so or not.

*Calvinists believe that God from the foundation of the world decreed all that will be saved (some believe that all were predetermined for heaven or hell, or that God simply "passed over" the non elect in a passive manner, depending on whether you are infra or supralapsarian, which really, there is no difference).

*In order for God to determine an 'elect', to redeem, there had to be something to redeem them FROM

 

*Thus in order to redeem them FROM something, and from someone, there had to be another group of non elect who were also sinful. No sinners, no need for redemption and no difference between the elect and non elect because neither would have a sin nature.

 

THE CONUNDRUM

Adam COULD HAVE chosen not to sin if you believe that Adam was initially created with free will (of every tree in the garden you MAY FREELY EAT). BUT, if Adam choose to NOT SIN, then what happens to God's decree? God messed up and decreed something that Adam interfered with by failing to sin (and the Westminster Confession eliminates God choosing any based on His "foresight").

 

Thus if God truly elected ANYONE to salvation before the foundation of the world, when He COULD HAVE elected everyone, not only does that mean God WANTED to damn someone making Him sadistic, but it also means HE HAD TO GUARANTEE THAT ADAM WOULD SIN IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE HIS ELECTION CAME TO PASS. 

This makes God the author and creator of sin no matter which way any Calvinist tries to spin it, ,and the biggest prOBlem that the Calvinist has is their view of the nature of God.

[No Nicolaitans]

...besides, Servetus isn't the only person Calvin had a hand in putting to death murdering.

[DaveW]

...besides, Servetus isn't the only person Calvin had a hand in putting to death murdering.

 

Oh yeah........ more than a few, at his command.

 

I wouldn't want to be a disOBedient child in his town........

 

And I am still waiting for any Calvinist to show me a vaguely passable salvation testimony of Calvin.

 

When I mention that point - as I did earlier - it is an open invitation for any man who has record of such a testimony to post it.

 

I have looked - I did a whole series on "The church Fathers" a few years ago, and the main thing I did was look for evidence of salvation in their writings.

I never did find such evidence for Calvin.

 

Plenty of evidence of other stuff - not good stuff - but no salvation testimony.

[No Nicolaitans]

Oh yeah........ more than a few, at his command.

 

I wouldn't want to be a disOBedient child in his town........

 

And I am still waiting for any Calvinist to show me a vaguely passable salvation testimony of Calvin.

 

When I mention that point - as I did earlier - it is an open invitation for any man who has record of such a testimony to post it.

 

I have looked - I did a whole series on "The church Fathers" a few years ago, and the main thing I did was look for evidence of salvation in their writings.

I never did find such evidence for Calvin.

 

Plenty of evidence of other stuff - not good stuff - but no salvation testimony.

 

Was he baptized as an infant? We know that he pushed infant baptism, and I've often wondered if he was baptized as an infant...and if he was, is that what he thought made him a Christian. 

[DaveW]

Was he baptized as an infant? We know that he pushed infant baptism, and I've often wondered if he was baptized as an infant...and if he was, is that what he thought made him a Christian.

Catholic before he left - studied for the priesthood after he studied law.

I assume he was Catholic baptized, but never found anything about his own baptism or salvation.

[Jeffrey]

I have an article on my website where we address this very pathetic excuse of John Calvin (that he "didn't have authority") 

Calvinists Defense of John Calvin on the Michael Servetus Ordeal

ill read this later

[Pastor Matt]

man... another one where Im going to get my head lopped off.

What is the point of making a statement like that? If anything, I should be making that statement.

[Jeffrey]

 

Thus if God truly elected ANYONE to salvation before the foundation of the world, when He COULD HAVE elected everyone, not only does that mean God WANTED to damn someone making Him sadistic, but it also means HE HAD TO GUARANTEE THAT ADAM WOULD SIN IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE HIS ELECTION CAME TO PASS. 

This makes God the author and creator of sin no matter which way any Calvinist tries to spin it, ,and the biggest prOBlem that the Calvinist has is their view of the nature of God.

 

 

 

Actually, I believe you have the wrong view of God. Because God is holy and righteous,we are all worthy of hell.. think about that, but because God gave us a gift (Eph 2:8,9) something we dont deserve, reached down and saved whom He chose

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

[MountainChristian]

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

[Jeffrey]

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That was for the Laodicean church, believers.

[John81]

Good catch on Rev 3:20. I know some pastors and evangelists who kind of have a pet peeve with Christians wrongly using that verse out of context. This especially as they point out the many verses specific to the preaching of the Gospel.

[Jeffrey]

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity is not merely that man inherited a sin nature under the federal headship of Adam, but that man is totally UNABLE to respond to the gospel, hear the voice of God, unless he was elected and determined to be saved. Calvinists attempt to persuade people to accept Total Depravity by default by tricking them into thinking that a denial of total inability is a denial of total depravity, and since most believers believe that we all inherited our sin nature from Adam somehow, the believer that doesn't know any better swallows depravity hook, line and sinker because he doesn't know what the Calvinist REALLY believes about Total Depravity.

so you decided one day that you wanted a relationship with God and asked Jesus into your heart?

can you explain John 15:16, Matt 11:27, John 6:44?

I do have more in case you think I am just going through a few verses