It Shall Be An Everlasting Covenant With Them

[Covenanter]

 

Then there is a covenant that is confirmed for one week - this implies the beginning of the week starts at the confirmation.

Then the sacrifice and OBlation cease.

You folk have repeatedly mentioned "a covenant" meaning a new, unspecified 7-year covenant that will be made by antichrist, who will renage on it mid-week.

 

 

 

Scripture says: he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Not "a covenant." Jesus did confirm the covenant during his ministry & through the Apostolic Gospel, until they were declared "uncircumcised." That did not end A 7-year covenant but it did end covenant people status for those who rejected THE covenant being confirmed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Do you reject what Isaiah & Amos prophesied - that ritual killing of animals is NOT sacrifice? The LORD did not think so.

 

The covenant stands, confirmed for all believers through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[DaveW]

You folk have repeatedly mentioned "a covenant" meaning a new, unspecified 7-year covenant that will be made by antichrist, who will renage on it mid-week.



Scripture says: he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Not "a covenant." Jesus did confirm the covenant during his ministry & through the Apostolic Gospel, until they were declared "uncircumcised." That did not end A 7-year covenant but it did end covenant people status for those who rejected THE covenant being confirmed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you reject what Isaiah & Amos prophesied - that ritual killing of animals is NOT sacrifice? The LORD did not think so.

The covenant stands, confirmed for all believers through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is a covenant.
Which covenant is not important in the argument of timing.
The covenant is confirmed for one week - at the time of the confirmation of the covenant the "one week" begins.
This occurs after the war which itself cones after the cutting off of Messiah.

[Covenanter]

It is a covenant.
Which covenant is not important in the argument of timing.
The covenant is confirmed for one week - at the time of the confirmation of the covenant the "one week" begins.
This occurs after the war which itself cones after the cutting off of Messiah.

No  - it's THE covenant. The result of the covenant relationship is the oft-repeated expression:

I will be your God and you will be my people.

See Lev. 26:9-12 fulfilled in the Gospel, 2 Cor. 6:6 and in the NH&NE Rev. 21:3 

 

Why should a glorious prophecy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and and his salvation be downgraded to a prophecy of antichrist ?

 

As Hebrews explains so clearly, God's glorious covenant purposes for his people are fulfilled in his Son.

[DaveW]

No - it's THE covenant. The result of the covenant relationship is the oft-repeated expression:
I will be your God and you will be my people.
See Lev. 26:9-12 fulfilled in the Gospel, 2 Cor. 6:6 and in the NH&NE Rev. 21:3

Why should a glorious prophecy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and and his salvation be downgraded to a prophecy of antichrist ?

As Hebrews explains so clearly, God's glorious covenant purposes for his people are fulfilled in his Son.

By your arguing about the covenant in particular your are sidestepping the issue of the timing inherent in the passage.

The timing is not dependent upon which covenant. The covenant is confirmed for a week - the phrasing indicates that this covenant is confirmed at the start of that week, which is the 70th week of the prophecy.
This confirmation occurs after Messiah is cut off, and the war following it has been ended.

Arguing over which covenant is a smokescreen to blur the prOBlem you have with the timing inherent in the passage.

[Covenanter]

My prOBlem is believing that 70 weeks (of years) means 490 years, not 2,500 years & counting. And those years were completed (finished) in around AD 35.

 

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

[DaveW]

My prOBlem is believing that 70 weeks (of years) means 490 years, not 2,500 years & counting. And those years were completed (finished) in around AD 35.

 

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

More smokescreen.....

 

I never mentioned 2500 years.

 

I am talking about the inherent order of events - 69 weeks, Messiah is cut off, war ending with flood, covenant is confirmed for a week, in the middle of that week the sacrifice ceases.

 

Messiah is cut off, the war ends before the covenant is confirmed, the last week starts with the confirmation of that covenant, and the sacrifice ceases in the middle of that week.

No mention of other time periods, not 10 days, not 10 years, not 70 years, not 700 years, not 2500 years - but the order is OBvious and simply stated, and the passage is blatantly plain about that order.

 

 

However, you have to fit a war in between Messiah being cut off after the 69th week, and the covenant being confirmed at the start of the 70th week.

The passage includes it; so must we.

And Messiah being cut off, and the sacrifice ceasing are also separate events in this passage.

 

What implications these things have is not at issue here - when reading the passage these things are plainly seen.

 

Therefore our understanding of events and timing must fit with these facts. But the passage itself does not comment further on other events or timing.

2500 years, 70 years, whatever, are just not in this passage.

7 weeks, 62 weeks, Messiah cut off, a war, a covenant confirmed for a week, the sacrifice ceases.

[Covenanter]

More smokescreen.....

 

I never mentioned 2500 years.

 

I am talking about the inherent order of events - 69 weeks, Messiah is cut off, war ending with flood, covenant is confirmed for a week, in the middle of that week the sacrifice ceases.

 

Messiah is cut off, the war ends before the covenant is confirmed, the last week starts with the confirmation of that covenant, and the sacrifice ceases in the middle of that week.

No mention of other time periods, not 10 days, not 10 years, not 70 years, not 700 years, not 2500 years - but the order is OBvious and simply stated, and the passage is blatantly plain about that order.

 

 

However, you have to fit a war in between Messiah being cut off after the 69th week, and the covenant being confirmed at the start of the 70th week.

The passage includes it; so must we.

And Messiah being cut off, and the sacrifice ceasing are also separate events in this passage.

 

What implications these things have is not at issue here - when reading the passage these things are plainly seen.

 

Therefore our understanding of events and timing must fit with these facts. But the passage itself does not comment further on other events or timing.

2500 years, 70 years, whatever, are just not in this passage.

7 weeks, 62 weeks, Messiah cut off, a war, a covenant confirmed for a week, the sacrifice ceases.

I see what you are saying. The events of 26 &27 are consecutive, so the 70th week begins after the destruction. That forces an indefinite gap between 69 & 70.

 

That makes nonsense of the 70 week prophecy - we are still waiting, and 300 weeks have passed without week 70 appearing.

 

Whether Jesus' baptism or final entry marks "after 69 weeks" is not the argument. It is when the 70th begins. I believe God can count, so 70 must immediately follow 69. Verse 27 therefore describes the final week. Verse 26 prophesies the crucifixion and the destruction that followed the rejection of the Messiah - a 40 year period of grace. Then the events of week 70.  The covenant is confirmed by the Gospel, with many thousands believing and suffering rejection by the authorities. 

 

Finally, with Stephen's defence, accusing the Jewish authorities of offering corrupt sacrifices, and declaring them "uncircumcised" the week is finished. All that remains is the destruction and desolation, as prophesied in detail by the Lord. The Jerusalem Christians understood. Why is it such a matter of contention? 

 

The 70 weeks can be readily understood by Scripture. Why invent a futuristic fulfilment?

 

[DaveW]

I am not inventing any fulfillment at all - I am reading the passage as it is written.

[beameup]

From the decree of Artaxerxes to rebuild the wall (and gates) of Jerusalem until the Triumphal Entry of Jesus into Jerusalem is 483 years,

which would bring us to 33 A.D.

Now, if the prophecy is fulfilled consecutively, then it must have been fulfilled by 40 A.D.

If not, then there is a "gap" and so it doesn't matter how long the gap is. 

[Invicta]

From the decree of Artaxerxes to rebuild the wall (and gates) of Jerusalem until the Triumphal Entry of Jesus into Jerusalem is 483 years,

which would bring us to 33 A.D.

Now, if the prophecy is fulfilled consecutively, then it must have been fulfilled by 40 A.D.

If not, then there is a "gap" and so it doesn't matter how long the gap is. 

 

And how exactly do you work out that timeline?

 

Henry Grattan Guinness, who was an astronomer of note and a writer on prophecy said that  From Artaxerxes to Jesus (I cannot remember what point in His ministry) was 490 lunar years and 490 solar years from Darius.  

 

Ptolemy on whose writings secular chronology is based gives the Persian Empire 205 years, whereas Jewish and Persian traditions give only about  55 years.

 

Ptolemy gives 10 or 11 Persian kings  after Cyrus, but Herodotus, Xenophon, and scripture give only four. 

 

First we read of Xerxes

 

Daniel 11:2  And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

 

Then Alexander

 

Daniel 11:3  And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

4  And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

 

Herodotus only gives Artaxerxes as a Pro Rex for his father looking after the kingdom while Xerxes was on his Greek expedition.

[beameup]

 

And how exactly do you work out that timeline?

 

Henry Grattan Guinness, who was an astronomer of note and a writer on prophecy said that  From Artaxerxes to Jesus (I cannot remember what point in His ministry) was 490 lunar years and 490 solar years from Darius.  

 

Ptolemy on whose writings secular chronology is based gives the Persian Empire 205 years, whereas Jewish and Persian traditions give only about  55 years.

 

Ptolemy gives 10 or 11 Persian kings  after Cyrus, but Herodotus, Xenophon, and scripture give only four. 

 

First we read of Xerxes

 

Daniel 11:2  And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

 

Then Alexander

 

Daniel 11:3  And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

4  And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

 

Herodotus only gives Artaxerxes as a Pro Rex for his father looking after the kingdom while Xerxes was on his Greek expedition.

 

Are you purposely ignoring the books of Ezra and Nehemiah which I previously referenced and quoted?

Either way, you are not making yourself look very good to the rest of us.

 

A gap is a gap is a gap... whether it be 37 years (33 AD--70 AD) or 1,981 years (currently).

 

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

[Invicta]

More smokescreen.....

 

I never mentioned 2500 years.

 

I am talking about the inherent order of events - 69 weeks, Messiah is cut off, war ending with flood, covenant is confirmed for a week, in the middle of that week the sacrifice ceases.

 

Messiah is cut off, the war ends before the covenant is confirmed, the last week starts with the confirmation of that covenant, and the sacrifice ceases in the middle of that week.

No mention of other time periods, not 10 days, not 10 years, not 70 years, not 700 years, not 2500 years - but the order is OBvious and simply stated, and the passage is blatantly plain about that order.

 

 

However, you have to fit a war in between Messiah being cut off after the 69th week, and the covenant being confirmed at the start of the 70th week.

The passage includes it; so must we.

And Messiah being cut off, and the sacrifice ceasing are also separate events in this passage.

 

What implications these things have is not at issue here - when reading the passage these things are plainly seen.

 

Therefore our understanding of events and timing must fit with these facts. But the passage itself does not comment further on other events or timing.

2500 years, 70 years, whatever, are just not in this passage.

7 weeks, 62 weeks, Messiah cut off, a war, a covenant confirmed for a week, the sacrifice ceases.

 

Why do you make the 69 weeks end at the end of Christ's ministry rather that the beginning?  It seems plain to me that when John said  

 

29 ¶  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

 

36  And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

 

And the voice of God from heaven said.

 

Matt 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

Mark 1:11  And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

Lu 3:22  And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

 

The disciples recognized him as Messiah.

 

John 1:41  He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

 

 

Mark 3:16  Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

17  And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

18  And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.

19  And when he had gone a little further thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.

20  And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.

 

23 ¶  And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

24  Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy 

 

Luke 4:41  And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

 

The Jews also were expectant at that time.

 

Jesus said: Mark 3:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

What time could be fulfilled, but the end of 69 weeks?

 

That seems perfectly plain to me.  As you OBviously disagree, I would like to know why you reject what seems to me, and to others, plain scripture teaching?

[Invicta]

 

Are you purposely ignoring the books of Ezra and Nehemiah which I previously referenced and quoted?

Either way, you are not making yourself look very good to the rest of us.

 

A gap is a gap is a gap... whether it be 37 years (33 AD--70 AD) or 1,981 years (currently).

 

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

 

 

 

I have already shown from Ezra, that it is very unlikely that Nehemiah could have built the walls in the  20th or 31st year of Artaxerxes, according to accepted chronology, as he would have been at least 130 years old, being one of the leading Jews who returned with Zerubbabel, also Isaiah said it would be Cyrus who would give the command to build the city.  

 

As Nehemiah returned at the beginning,

Ezra 2:1 ¶  Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;

2  Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. 

He would have known the walls were broken down, so why was he still shocked over  100 years later?

 

Morecai was also on who returned at the same time.  Think on that.  

 

Is 44:28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

 

Remember it was the publishing of the command, not the completion of the work.

 

Daniel 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

 

Because Ezra did not mention both in Ezra 1,it doesn't mean that the scripture was not fulfilled.When Nehemiah returned and worked on the walls the city was built as they were living in houses.  The city was built before the temple,  Haggai :1-4.

 

Nehemiah repaired the walls in  days, hardly building the city.

[MountainChristian]

Isaiah Chapter 61 ^{(Luke 4:17-19)}

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

 

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

 

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

 

Jesus stopped reading for a reason. I think hind sight proves Jesus knew He was going to pause the weeks of Daniel so we gentiles can be saved under His glorious grace. 

[Invicta]

How many kings by the name of Artaxerxes are mentioned in Ezra?