Saving for Retirement

[brosmith]

Based upon the debate in another thread I thought it would be best to have a separate thread on this subject. I myself do not see any scriptural basis for participating in a 401K, IRA, ect. I also see it as unscriptural based upon Luke 12:16-21 and James 4:13-17.

I do believe that it is necessary to have a modest emergency fund to keep from going into debt. I also believe that it is scriptural to have an emergency fund based upon Proverbs 22:3 and Luke 14:28-30.

[Colin Stolzer]

Based upon the debate in another thread I thought it would be best to have a separate thread on this subject. I myself do not see any scriptural basis for participating in a 401K, IRA, ect. I also see it as unscriptural based upon Luke 12:16-21 and James 4:13-17.

I do believe that it is necessary to have a modest emergency fund to keep from going into debt. I also believe that it is scriptural to have an emergency fund based upon Proverbs 22:3 and Luke 14:28-30.

I would like to ask some questions,
Have you sold all that you have as instructed in Luke 12:33?
Do you judge others because of their investments? Because you should look to James 4:12 and consider it.
And how about forsaking all in Luke 14:33, how does that go with laying up in store for an emergency?
Can you reconcile these against your position on the verses you gave?

C

[Guest Guest]

As I see it, there is little practical difference between an "emergency fund" and a 401k, etc. It is only a difference of degree. It doesn't matter to God if you are a rich Christian or a poor one. There were believers who were each in both the OT and the NT. What bothers God is covetousness and faithlessness: you can be covetous or faithless no matter if you are rich or poor. The only way poverty might have an edge is due to the fact that the less money you have the more difficult it is to trust in it. Of course, being poor doesn't mean your trusting God either, I have seen lots of poor Christian who worried about money all the time. In their own way they were trusting in money too, if they were not, they wouldn't worry so much about it.

Personally I invest in a 401k because I think it is a prudent thing to do, but I know the economy or the government could collapse long before I need it causing me to lose it all. In that case, oh well. :lol

[brosmith]

I would like to ask some questions,
Have you sold all that you have as instructed in Luke 12:33?
Do you judge others because of their investments? Because you should look to James 4:12 and consider it.
And how about forsaking all in Luke 14:33, how does that go with laying up in store for an emergency?
Can you reconcile these against your position on the verses you gave?

1. I am like the apostle Paul in Phil 4:11,12
2. I am following the command of Jesus in John 7:24.
3. I am not trusting in uncertain riches I Timothy 6:17.

Question for you: How do you reconcile saving for retirement with Luke 12:16-21? Would not a retirement savings be equal to "much goods laid up for many years"?

[Colin Stolzer]

1. I am like the apostle Paul in Phil 4:11,12
2. I am following the command of Jesus in John 7:24.
3. I am not trusting in uncertain riches I Timothy 6:17.

Question for you: How do you reconcile saving for retirement with Luke 12:16-21? Would not a retirement savings be equal to "much goods laid up for many years"?

Abasing and abounding doesn't answer for selling all you have in Luke 12:33
So how does somebody else having something saved for later give you the ability to judge them righteously?
How is having an emergency fund not trusting in uncertain riches?
I'm guessing by your answers you can't reconcile the verses given and you haven't sold or forsaken all?
First you have to define "much"? If you define much as setting aside what you think you will need to provide a roof to live under and food to eat then I would guess it isn't. If on the other hand you define "much" as I have so much wealth I can just lay around and do nothing for the rest of my life then I would say it is.

C

[brosmith]

Abasing and abounding doesn't answer for selling all you have in Luke 12:33
So how does somebody else having something saved for later give you the ability to judge them righteously?
How is having an emergency fund not trusting in uncertain riches?
I'm guessing by your answers you can't reconcile the verses given and you haven't sold or forsaken all?
First you have to define "much"? If you define much as setting aside what you think you will need to provide a roof to live under and food to eat then I would guess it isn't. If on the other hand you define "much" as I have so much wealth I can just lay around and do nothing for the rest of my life then I would say it is.

#1 - In Luke 12:33 Jesus was giving a cure for covetousness.
#2 - An emergency fund is a matter of prudence (to keep from going into debt).
#3 - I would say that "much goods laid up for many years" is self-explanatory.

I will repeat my questions to you:

How do you reconcile saving for retirement with Luke 12:16-21?
Would not a retirement savings be equal to "much goods laid up for many years"?

[brosmith]

So how does somebody else having something saved for later give you the ability to judge them righteously?

You are assuming that I am judging people for having a retirement savings. I am not judging people. I am judging the rationale behind a retirement program.

By the way, if our government would allow ordinary workers to opt out of Social Security I would do it in a heart beat! As a preacher I opted out 15 years ago. But as a regular worker I can't.

[Colin Stolzer]

It's not covetousness to provide for yourself, it's covetous to want material possession that others have and you don't.
Having something set aside for a time when you can no longer physically labor isn't prudent it's just covetous?
Wouldn't an emergency fund be good laid up for many years?
If you never need it for an emergency, it's just goods laid up for many years. And the converse can be said for retirement savings, I've seen many people cash in their retirement funds early because of an emergency. What exactly is the difference?
Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. You are the one who answered with this verse not me, so tell me about the righteous judgement you are making of people who have a retirement savings?
BTW I don't have a retirement savings in the conventional sense, no 401, no IRA, No Social security number, no stocks or bonds, no mutual funds.

C

[Anon]

In the other thread, you never explained this verse for me:

2 Corinthians 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

What about this example, showed by Christ and the example of the Master was equated to be like God:

Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.


I agree also, having a 401K or having a savings account is not really too different.

I have yet to have someone explain to me how one is to live if one does not have a retirement fund AND if one does not live off the government for his last years.

[Guest Guest]

It's not covetousness to provide for yourself, it's covetous to want material possession that others have and you don't.
Having something set aside for a time when you can no longer physically labor isn't prudent it's just covetous?
Wouldn't an emergency fund be good laid up for many years?
If you never need it for an emergency, it's just goods laid up for many years. And the converse can be said for retirement savings, I've seen many people cash in their retirement funds early because of an emergency. What exactly is the difference?
Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. You are the one who answered with this verse not me, so tell me about the righteous judgement you are making of people who have a retirement savings?
BTW I don't have a retirement savings in the conventional sense, no 401, no IRA, No Social security number, no stocks or bonds, no mutual funds.

C

:goodpost:

[Guest Guest]

How do you reconcile saving for retirement with Luke 12:16-21?
Would not a retirement savings be equal to "much goods laid up for many years"?

Lets look at the passage.

"Luke 12:16-21 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."

First, notice that his ground "brought forth plentifully". God gave that to him. There was no sin there. His reaction to his God given increase was the problem.

He realizes he is doing well, so he begins to "think". Then he begins to sin in his mind.

#1 wastefulness. He plans to take down his barns to build greater, destroying what God had already given him when there was nothing wrong with it. Why would he not merely add new barns if he needed them?

#2 His motives were wrong. His reason for desiring this is so that he could quit working and start partying. God meant for man to work at something and to have more purpose than merely self indulgence. This man was not rich toward God. It seems as if it was all about him. Not a word about others, what else he could do for good etc., not a word about God or even thanks to him, we only see him verbally patting himself on the back and planning to relax and start indulging his flesh. That sort of retirement is wrong.


The "much goods laid up for many years" was not the area of sin, Job for example was said to be the "greatest of all the men of the east", you could say he had "much goods laid up for many years" too, yet God said that he was perfect and upright. The difference was that he used what God gave him for good rather than parties and self indulgence.

[matie-k]

How is it different for a person to have a "6,000 dollar emergency fund" than say a 6,000 dollar 401k? It seems better stewardship of the money to put it somewhere where it'll gain better interest.

Another good reason to put away for the future is so as not to burden your children when you are aging and needing expensive care. I dread the thought of putting a large financial burden on my children someday because I didn't set aside to help take care of myself.

[Anon]

Oh yeah, Job. See, nothing wrong with being rich. What is wrong, is putting money before God.

Nobody can convince me that using government funds is more spiritual than putting your own hard earned money in an investment fund so that you are independent as an older person AND able to pass down an inheritance to your children.

Do a word study on inheritance in the Bible. See what you find....

[HappyChristian]

I'll repost a thought that I put in the other thread mentioned in the OP.

Retirement age is now 72. But just a couple of years ago it was 65. So, I am going to use that age as a base. Suppose someone retires at age 65. Maybe they had to (my dad for one example - blind in one eye, going blind in the other...if you can't see, you can't work,especially if you are a painter). Anyway, they retire. And they still owe a mortgage. Let's assume it's small - $500/month. And let's factor in insurance at $1,000/year. Property taxes at (cheap!) $1,000/year. Now, let's say their mortgage will not be paid off for ten years. They would need $80,000 just to pay for their homes. That's a lot of dough!

That doesn't include other needs like food (yeah, that would come in handy ), utilities, clothing, gasoline, car care, etc.

Would a retirement fund be just for spending on lusts and waste? No - it would be used to take care of their needs. And it would be from the sweat of their brow - saving money they earned so as not to be a burden on others.

My grandmother will be 99 next month. She receives social security. But I guarantee that she doesn't make enough to pay for her housing and food. She has very minimal needs. My parents take care of her. They also are raising and homeschooling my nephew. That all costs money. My dad does work some for a fellow (amazing what that man can do even though he's almost completely blind! He can work rings around people who see 20/20!!!), but he's limited in what he can do, not only due to his eyes but also because the gubmint won't allow him to earn over a certain amount or he would lose some of his social security and disability (for which he paid, so he shouldn't be docked, but that's the gubmint!!).

Those verses you cited are good ones, brosmith, but I think you are oversimplifying what Jesus meant. I don't believe he meant not to store things. Are you against canning? My mom just finished putting up 91 quarts of green beans that God gave them in their garden...and more are out there. Was she sinning to put away for the future? Same reasoning is applied to money.

Hoarding is not saving. Hoarding is collecting or putting away things in a guarded manner. That's the attitude of those in James. Someone who hoards does it just to have, and just to know they have (picture a miser...). A person who is putting away for retirement has a completely different perspective on saving.

See- my parents give out of their abundance. God has blessed them - they save some, they give some away. A hoarder gives nothing away. Big difference.

As to Seth's post - right on!!!

[Pastorj]

She is absolutely wrong for canning (sarcasm) God says to give us "This Day" our daily bread. 90+ days of canning is just sinful

Give me a break. I have posted a few times only to delete the post as I was trying to stay out of this one.

Bro. Smith, you have completely mis-interpreted scripture by stating that saving for the future is sinful. I am at work right now, but I will post this weekend the Biblical basis for planning for the future. In the meantime, there are many Christian books on this subject you may want to read.