Eternal Security Taught In Hebrews 6

[AVBibleBeliever]

So let me get this straight, as I have not, admittedly, done a lot of study on the ultradispensationalist movement.

 

I understand dispensations-I get it that God has dealt in different ways-ie, the covenant of Abraham, the building on that of the law at Sinai, Christ, etc. Yes, I'm a dispensationist. But then, the idea being put forth here is that  there was a dispensation of the Apostles, and a dispensation of Paul, that God was dealing with believers differently, the apostles preached on thing for the Jews, and Paul took something slightly different for the Gentiles?

 

Now, of course, I understand that Jesus' primary message in His earthly teachings was directed at the Jews, to whom He first came. I get that, though I also believe many of the teachings He gave them can be applied to all, while some can't, and context will show that.

 

But see, the teachings of the Apostles HAD to be applicable to ALL, and the commands of Jesus had to be applicable to ALL, because Jesus told the Apostles, at His ascension, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, batizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you..."  They were told to teach, not just the Jews, but ALL nations, thus, go to the Jews AND the Gentiles, and teach ALL of them the things He commanded them. Thus, the Apostles did not have a gospel of the kingdom to the Jews only, but the gospel of salvation and the commands of Jesus for ALL nations. 

 

As well, the Bible says that the church was built upon the foundation of the Apostles, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone. How could the church be built om those whose teaching was only for certain people, and would change? 

it took me a while and I still don't have a complete hand around it but the Gospel of the Kingdom was faith plus works for the people as a whole nation, the gospel of Grace that Paul taught was faith alone with no works to get saved for men individually, then when the gathering together in the clouds takes place it reverts back to the Kingdom gospel (but the book of Hebrews shows it is modified with the understanding that salvation was for individuals as well as the nation), then near the end just before Christ returns to establish the kingdom the Angel preaches the Everlasting gospel to all mankind to fear and worship him, this results only in getting them alive into the Kingdom economy and once in they will have to do the works of Zac 14 to get eternal life.  that is how I see it but I could be mistaken

[ASongOfDegrees]

1) that is a mystery

 

2) Paul is using the tern chaste virgin as a simile, a figure of speech to liken something to another but not claiming that we are a actual female or bride.

 

3) again a mystery as in answer to your first question.

 

4) the earthly Jerusalem is not at this time a Bride.

 

5)  Read Hosea and how he divorced his wife and took her back

 

6)  1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.   Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 

7) The bible has a lot of places that are hard to understand but there is nothing wrong with the text nor is it in error.

I never said it was an error.

 

Also, saying it is a "mystery", which it is, still doesn't explain it.

[John81]

Salvation has always been, will always be, by grace through faith, not of works.

[ASongOfDegrees]

it took me a while and I still don't have a complete hand around it but the Gospel of the Kingdom was faith plus works for the people as a whole nation, the gospel of Grace that Paul taught was faith alone with no works to get saved for men individually, then when the gathering together in the clouds takes place it reverts back to the Kingdom gospel (but the book of Hebrews shows it is modified with the understanding that salvation was for individuals as well as the nation), then near the end just before Christ returns to establish the kingdom the Angel preaches the Everlasting gospel to all mankind to fear and worship him, this results only in getting them alive into the Kingdom economy and once in they will have to do the works of Zac 14 to get eternal life.  that is how I see it but I could be mistaken

Brother, the gospel of the kingdom is not offered until Matthew.

 

The OT was law. A man had to believe God and show this belief by keeping the commandments and sacrifices and then reside in Abraham's Bosom after his death. His salvation was not completed until Christ made the final atonement and set in motion the New Testament. Hebrews 9:13,14. 

 

The gospel of the kingdom is simply the promise of fulfillment of the kingdom promises to Israel through Abraham and David with their Messiah on the throne. Since they rejected this this promise has been shelved until God is finished calling out a bride for his Son.

[Ukulelemike]

it took me a while and I still don't have a complete hand around it but the Gospel of the Kingdom was faith plus works for the people as a whole nation, the gospel of Grace that Paul taught was faith alone with no works to get saved for men individually, then when the gathering together in the clouds takes place it reverts back to the Kingdom gospel (but the book of Hebrews shows it is modified with the understanding that salvation was for individuals as well as the nation), then near the end just before Christ returns to establish the kingdom the Angel preaches the Everlasting gospel to all mankind to fear and worship him, this results only in getting them alive into the Kingdom economy and once in they will have to do the works of Zac 14 to get eternal life.  that is how I see it but I could be mistaken

I see what you're saying but it still doesn't explain why Jesus would send His Apostles to preach a gospel to all nations that only applied for a short time to the Jewish people. Or why those teachings would become the foundation for the whole church, since they would not be a part OF that church, which is based on salvation by grace through faith alone.  Not trying to be argumentative, just to understand it.

 

As well, why, if the teachings of the apostles was pretty much specifically for the Jewish believers, why would Paul seek their direction for the Galatian (Gentile) churches in dealing with the Judaizers?  Seems their advice would not be applicable.

[Bro K]

Gospel means Good News. What is Good News; Jesus Saves. Just ask my brother-in-law!!!!!!!   AND   By the way; Amen means So Be It.

 Apparently the above post needs reposting.   

[AVBibleBeliever]

Brother, the gospel of the kingdom is not offered until Matthew.

 

The OT was law. A man had to believe God and show this belief by keeping the commandments and sacrifices and then reside in Abraham's Bosom after his death. His salvation was not completed until Christ made the final atonement and set in motion the New Testament. Hebrews 9:13,14. 

 

The gospel of the kingdom is simply the promise of fulfillment of the kingdom promises to Israel through Abraham and David with their Messiah on the throne. Since they rejected this this promise has been shelved until God is finished calling out a bride for his Son.

Under Law it was that same as the kingdom Gospel faith plus works= gods grace and slavation

[AVBibleBeliever]

Salvation has always been, will always be, by grace through faith, not of works.

all three of these element exist in each period in which God was dealing with men

 

Old testament pre-law faith + works + grace/salvation

Old test Law faith+works=grace stay in the land, and get salvation after death at the resurrection of the last day. Exo-acts 8

Church Age faith alone=grace and salvation, works follow. Acts10 -Philemon

Tribulation Faith+works=grace, after death the grace of God/salvation at the first resurrection Hebrews - Rev14

Angelic Everlasting Gospel faith+works=grace to enter the kingdom do the works in the kingdom until death at the white throne judgement. Rev 14-19

Kingdom works+nothing = grace and salvation/eternal life after death at the  (see Zac 14)    Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  Rev 20-21

[AVBibleBeliever]

I see what you're saying but it still doesn't explain why Jesus would send His Apostles to preach a gospel to all nations that only applied for a short time to the Jewish people. Or why those teachings would become the foundation for the whole church, since they would not be a part OF that church, which is based on salvation by grace through faith alone.  Not trying to be argumentative, just to understand it.

 

As well, why, if the teachings of the apostles was pretty much specifically for the Jewish believers, why would Paul seek their direction for the Galatian (Gentile) churches in dealing with the Judaizers?  Seems their advice would not be applicable.

The 11 apostles will complete going into all the world with the Kingdom Gospel that in the kingdom because they never completed in the preparation phase before Israel was set aside in Acts 7 when they rejected the Holy Ghost. OT Israel rejected God the father, the four gospel books Israel rejected God the Son and in Act 7 Israel rejected God the Holy Ghost and they got set aside and another was sent to all mankind jews and Gentiles with the gospel of Grace through faith alone.

 

The judiazers were preaching the wrong gospel in the wrong age and suffer a curse just as if that angel of Rev 14 showed up today claiming the everlasting Gospel.

[ASongOfDegrees]

Under Law it was that same as the kingdom Gospel faith plus works= gods grace and slavation

I understand this ("faith and works") but the kingdom wasn't offered yet prior to Christ's first coming. Also, you have the Sermon of the Mount which is part of the gospel of the kingdom which you don't have in the OT.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I understand this ("faith and works") but the kingdom wasn't offered yet prior to Christ's first coming. Also, you have the Sermon of the Mount which is part of the gospel of the kingdom which you don't have in the OT.

If I said that I was mistaken or wrote a mis thought.  However the point was as in  faith plus works in the law so it was the same in the preparation of the kingdom Matthew through Acts8. faith plus works.

 

If Israel would have accepted Christ as their messiah, he still would have been killed and rose again in three days and ascended into heaven, there would have been a 7 year tribulation and a scattering of the Jews, then he would have come in 37AD to established the kingdom.

 

But that never happened and we have what we have today still waiting for the tribulation and His coming to set up the kingdom.

[John81]

There is no works based salvation, ever.

[candlelight]

Exaclty, John.  Adding works + salvation is a dangerous game to play.  It has always been grace by faith in Jesus Christ, from the time of Genesis to Revelation.

[AVBibleBeliever]

In the 1000 year portion of the Kingdom any nation that does not come to Jerusalem(works) they will get no rain (God's grace) but instead will have drought, famine and the plague that killed the horses and camels.  They have to believe this as Jesus will command it of them but they can't have faith in Jesus because he is on the throne.

 

Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
 16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

Now what was that about not having works to get God's grace?

[candlelight]

In the 1000 year portion of the Kingdom any nation that does not come to Jerusalem(works) they will get no rain (God's grace) but instead will have drought, famine and the plague that killed the horses and camels.  They have to believe this as Jesus will command it of them but they can't have faith in Jesus because he is on the throne.

 

Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
 16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

Now what was that about not having works to get God's grace?

 

AVBB, I am still confused as to why you are adding works to Christ's already finished work on the cross.  A person comes to faith in Jesus Christ by trusting in His shed blood at the cross of Calvary.  Grace is Christ's gift to us.  We did nothing to earn it.  Faith in Him brings us to His saving knowledge.  I could be wrong, but it appears that you are using an ultra-dispensationalist view on the Bible.  Why make it so complicated?  The RCC teaches a works based salvation not the IFB church.