Eternal Security Taught In Hebrews 6

[DaveW]

......

We do not wish to get into great theological debates with you we hold to one type of studying by right division and you hold to another. BTW many IFB hold to dispensational study as we do. so don't attack us if you don't

You keep saying stuff like this, but you keep pushing a certain doctrinal position.

You are saying basically "I believe this and if you disagree then you are wrong, but please don't debate me on doctrine."

That is a rather strange way to have a discussion - suggesting that no opposition be heard......

[John81]

I didn't say I don't believe in a rapture.

 

"Rightly dividing" means to study the whole Word of God to know the truth. It doesn't mean to divide the Word into dispensations, economies or categories.

[candlelight]

I didn't say I don't believe in a rapture.

 

"Rightly dividing" means to study the whole Word of God to know the truth. It doesn't mean to divide the Word into dispensations, economies or categories.

 

Whenever, the topic of the Rapture comes up, you steer the conversation in a new direction, John.  Are you Post-Trib like ukelelemike?  I could understand that.

I agree with you about "Rightly dividing."

[AVBibleBeliever]

You keep saying stuff like this, but you keep pushing a certain doctrinal position.

You are saying basically "I believe this and if you disagree then you are wrong, but please don't debate me on doctrine."

That is a rather strange way to have a discussion - suggesting that no opposition be heard......

By the way Dave, I don't think I quoted any of your posts here on this thread.   And seeing this is only your second one I don't really care if you think it is strange or not.  My point is I will not be led into arguments that end up with someone accusing someone of being a heretic, questions their salvation and says they are of the devil, or sepent like.

 

I merely stated on how I and others who study by economies (dispensations).  I have taught Eternal Salvation, not once did I say you could lose it, at least not in this age.  I may allude to that Christ is the Author of Salvation to all who believe and depending on which economy they will be.

 

sorry but this is how I study my Bible as do many IFB pastors.  I lay out how we study, but the argument is not on our way verses your way to the end of people name calling and making accusations that are un charitable.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I didn't say I don't believe in a rapture.

 

"Rightly dividing" means to study the whole Word of God to know the truth. It doesn't mean to divide the Word into dispensations, economies or categories.

Let's see if you don't have a way or system of right division how do you know if you are doing it?  Or doing it correctly?

 

economies and dispensations are by ages or times periods in which God dealt differently with different men at different times.  i.e. like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Israel, The church on the Rock, the Body of Christ the church age, the tribulation, the Kingdom and Eternity.   You don't get saved by building an ark if you are in the tribulation.  You don't get saved by keeping the law if you are in the church age.  you don't get saved today by fearing God as the Angel proclaims in Rev14.  another way to rightly divide, you can divide it by the Jews, the church of God and the Gentiles.

 

Others do it by covenants, some do it by the actual words of God i.e. laws, commandments, judgements, precepts, words, ways, ordinances and statutes. others by the words Saint.  saint in OT economy as well as during the time of Christ (pre-cross) is Israel, saint found in the Bible in from Romans to Philemon is the church, the body of Christ.  From Hebrews to Rev 19 most uses are of Israel. 

 

Categorizing the parts of Revelation as I suggested either here or in another thread (good to see you are reading them) is to see what is going on on earth, what is going on in heaven and what is pre-kingdom and what is post-kingdom.   Categories are only a way of outlining or grouping scripture for study as to keep it straight because the book of Revelation is one difficult book to study.  It is not for novice and may not even be for some moderately mature.  It is a truly difficult book to study.

 

So how are you rightly dividing the word of truth? 

 

In this I am interested because I just laid out how I do it.  And I would like to see how you do it.

[DaveW]

By the way DAVE I don't think I quoted any of your posts here on this thread. And seeing this is only your second one I don't really care if you think it is strange or not. My point is I will not be led into arguments that end up with someone accusing someone of being a heretic, questions their salvation and says they are of the devil, or sepent like.

I merely stated on how I and others who study by economies (dispensations). I have taught Eternal Salvation, not once did I say you could lose it, at least not in this age. I may allude to that Christ is the Author of Salvation to all who believe and depending on which economy they will be.

sorry but this is how I study my Bible as do many IFB pastors. I lay out how we study, but the argument is not on our way verses your way to the end of people name calling and making accusations that are un charitable.

Well, I made no comment about WHAT you are promoting, just about the form of your posts.

It IS strange to state your position but then suggest that opposing positions shouldn't be discussed......

"Uncharitable" is the reply you gave me.

I agree that at times some here are less than kind and some are just argumentative.
I TRY not to be thus, but do not always succeed.
And there are misunderstandings inherent in a purely written conversation.
For instance, my post which you attacked was not meant in a mean way, but obviously perceived as such by you.

Add to that the fact that you obviously don't care much for me and we end up with you taking a critical view of anything I post.

I don't agree with your position in this thread but have stayed out of it because I saw no way to engage the subject without you taking offence.
It seems I was right.

By the way, the number of posts a person makes does not make them more or less right.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Well, I made no comment about WHAT you are promoting, just about the form of your posts.

It IS strange to state your position but then suggest that opposing positions shouldn't be discussed......

"Uncharitable" is the reply you gave me.

I agree that at times some here are less than kind and some are just argumentative.
I TRY not to be thus, but do not always succeed.
And there are misunderstandings inherent in a purely written conversation.
For instance, my post which you attacked was not meant in a mean way, but obviously perceived as such by you.

Add to that the fact that you obviously don't care much for me and we end up with you taking a critical view of anything I post.

I don't agree with your position in this thread but have stayed out of it because I saw no way to engage the subject without you taking offence.
It seems I was right.

By the way, the number of posts a person makes does not make them more or less right.

Well I wasn't trying to be uncharitable at all to you.   I was just stating like it is as if I was speaking to a brother in the Lord calm and collective.

 

I didn't teach opposite of eternal salvation I was not opposing anything you shared.

 

No actually I care for you as a brother in the Lord and I am not critical of you.

 

so are you saying you believe that a person can lose their salvation today in the church age?

 

Or are you just saying just don't agree with my position on the type of study I do?

 

Anyway, to each his own and we will all be known as he is known in that day.  hallelujah!

[DaveW]

I do not agree that there are different ways of salvation in different time periods.

You can not lose eternal life once you have it.

There are many ways of studying the Word of God - often using more than one method can reveal things that a single form hides.
But no method changes what is written - at least no God honouring method. (And in that I am not suggesting anyone here fits that - just that there are such methods.)

[AVBibleBeliever]

I do not agree that there are different ways of salvation in different time periods.

You can not lose eternal life once you have it.

There are many ways of studying the Word of God - often using more than one method can reveal things that a single form hides.
But no method changes what is written - at least no God honouring method. (And in that I am not suggesting anyone here fits that - just that there are such methods.)

So do you have eternal life?

 

If yes,  What would it take for you to lose it?

 

If the scriptures say the Jesus is the author of eternal salvation in Hebrews 5:9, why would anyone believe they could lose their salvation if they are truly saved?

 

Do you believe in the system called Calvinism (true Calvinism has all five points)? or do you lean more towards Armenianism(sp?)?  or do you feel you are somewhere in between?

 

Though the title of this thread is after the system of Calvinism you will notice I never used it once.  I always use eternal salvation and in Christ Jesus am I truly secure.

 

BTW I apologize I noticed I printed your name in a post all caps I didn't mean to do that there was more to that as I hit the cap button I was going to go back and change it but you already quoted it with it.  I wasn't yelling that was a slip when I capped the "D" I had pressed the cap lock and not the shift button I erased to your name with the intention of correcting your name but I forgot and posted it and went to our IFB church for Wednesday night service.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I know a man who is of the Wesleyan church near our place of ministry in a so east Asian country.  Every time we got together he would slam eternal Salvation as not true Bible.

 

One day he came to my house with a friend, I am not sure why he brought the man over, but he went into his whole speal about there was no such think in the Bible as Eternal Salvation.  I let him talk and talk and talk.  Then he finally finished and I asked, "If I could show you one verse in the Bible that teaches eternal salvation would you believe in eternal slavation?  He said sure.

 

So I quoted Heb 5:7-9 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

Then I said there it is clear in black and white print.  Now do you believe it?

 

He looked at his watch and said he was late and had to go.  He has never again brought it up and never gave me his answer. 

 

Most men will believe what they have been taught without ever studying for them selves to see if those things are true.

 

An example of this is

Rev 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

This is what I was taught a Bible college and our current pastor taught this again just tonight.  the the Lamb's bride is the Body of Christ.  then went into verse nine asking if you were going to be invited to the marriage supper and clarified it saying only saved people will be invited.  That last part I believe only the saved from all time will be at that supper.

 

However, I no longer think that the Bride in Rev19 is the body of Christ because if says this in

Rev 21:9, 10 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.   And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

It says that the Bride is a great city, the holy Jerusalem.  This is not the body of Christ this is a city.  I hope I don't have to be a wall or foundation of a city for all eternity, I was hoping for a bit more than that.

 

But then again how can Christ be married to his own body of which he is the head.

 

Like I said in another thread, the book of Revelation is a difficult book to study.  And that is to say the least.

[ASongOfDegrees]

 

But then again how can Christ be married to his own body of which he is the head.

 

 

How can we all be sons (including saved women) yet also be a woman (i.e. the bride)?

 

How can we be an unmarried virgin yet also be his wife? (II Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:25-33)

 

How can a woman have a man inside her? (I Peter 3:4)

 

How can new Jerusalem at this time be an unmarried bride yet also our mother? (Galatians 4:26)

 

How can God be divorced? (Ezekiel 16)

 

Try explaining the Trinity to someone where is makes perfect sense and you don't end up with three gods.

 

There are a lot of paradoxes in the bible.

[DaveW]

Not all ILLUSTRATIONS have to apply all the time to every situation.

In fact, most of the time an illustration is to illustrate a particular point.

I really do think sometimes people make things harder than they have to be.

The Bible was not written so that only intellectuals could understand it - actually it was written so that even a child could understand.

[ASongOfDegrees]

The Bible was not written so that only intellectuals could understand it - actually it was written so that even a child could understand.

Not quite. Have a child figure out Ezekiel for you.

 

I will agree that it's written so a child can believe. 

 

The problem is many times we don't believe what the text clearly says because it goes against what we believe that it should say.

[Ukulelemike]

So let me get this straight, as I have not, admittedly, done a lot of study on the ultradispensationalist movement.

 

I understand dispensations-I get it that God has dealt in different ways-ie, the covenant of Abraham, the building on that of the law at Sinai, Christ, etc. Yes, I'm a dispensationist. But then, the idea being put forth here is that  there was a dispensation of the Apostles, and a dispensation of Paul, that God was dealing with believers differently, the apostles preached on thing for the Jews, and Paul took something slightly different for the Gentiles?

 

Now, of course, I understand that Jesus' primary message in His earthly teachings was directed at the Jews, to whom He first came. I get that, though I also believe many of the teachings He gave them can be applied to all, while some can't, and context will show that.

 

But see, the teachings of the Apostles HAD to be applicable to ALL, and the commands of Jesus had to be applicable to ALL, because Jesus told the Apostles, at His ascension, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, batizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you..."  They were told to teach, not just the Jews, but ALL nations, thus, go to the Jews AND the Gentiles, and teach ALL of them the things He commanded them. Thus, the Apostles did not have a gospel of the kingdom to the Jews only, but the gospel of salvation and the commands of Jesus for ALL nations. 

 

As well, the Bible says that the church was built upon the foundation of the Apostles, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone. How could the church be built om those whose teaching was only for certain people, and would change? 

[AVBibleBeliever]

How can we all be sons (including saved women) yet also be a woman (i.e. the bride)?

 

How can we be an unmarried virgin yet also be his wife? (II Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:25-33)

 

How can a woman have a man inside her? (I Peter 3:4)

 

How can new Jerusalem at this time be an unmarried bride yet also our mother? (Galatians 4:26)

 

How can God be divorced? (Ezekiel 16)

 

Try explaining the Trinity to someone where is makes perfect sense and you don't end up with three gods.

 

There are a lot of paradoxes in the bible.

1) that is a mystery

 

2) Paul is using the tern chaste virgin as a simile, a figure of speech to liken something to another but not claiming that we are a actual female or bride.

 

3) again a mystery as in answer to your first question.

 

4) the earthly Jerusalem is not at this time a Bride.

 

5)  Read Hosea and how he divorced his wife and took her back

 

6)  1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.   Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 

7) The bible has a lot of places that are hard to understand but there is nothing wrong with the text nor is it in error.