Why I Am Leaving The Church Growth Movement

[Bro K]

Ecumenism is not the only manipulation in Churches today.

Christ is coming for a Church without blemish. (without fault or blame)  I think I can say at least 90% of the "Church's" today are blemished by false doctrines.

Christ is coming for THE Church. I would venture to say that 100% of churches have a spot or two, or three, or .....................!!

[Jeffrey]

Jeff, Yet again you have derailed a useful thread with deliberate misdirection.
From your first post in this thread you addressed side issues and steered it away from the truths presented.
You do not discuss the issues presented, but find something to argue about, and then proceed to take a contrary position to whomever you wish.

I picked one issue of his assessment of the home group, I can point out other points later if you like. Beside here at OB many of your
Post take issue with things others are doing

[No Nicolaitans]

Variety of translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures

 

......Augustine

 

 

   

[John81]

That's especially not true when it comes to MVs which are all over the place and serve to confuse rather than bring a clear sense of the Scriptures.

[swathdiver]

Variety of translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures

 

......Augustine

 

Nonsense.  A variety of translations that don't agree with each other means one does not accept a final authority in their life, save for themselves.  They've set themselves up as a god and reject the living God and His Word, Jesus Christ.

 

 

Such folks are deceived and not regenerated and unable to come to the knowledge of the truth.  Indeed, the preaching of God's Word is foolish to them.

[Jeffrey]

Jeffrey,

 

Why attack all of IFB when it's certain you've not visited ever IFB church and don't know all IFB folks. I've no problem with someone point a problem concerning some IFBs, if it's accurate, but to continually broadly declare IFBs (which would mean all) as being this or that is not only inaccurate but smacks of someone simply looking for an opening to attack all IFBs.

 

As with everything in this world there are some things at both extremes and many things in between. IFBs are not all the same and can vary greatly. If you have something specific to say regarding IFB, fine, then please be specific; but the broad accusations against all IFBs or IFBs in general is not beneficial.

After I was converted in 1990 I joined an IFB church and was a member of one until of May 2011. through many states through visiting many ministries, many hold to the same truths

[No Nicolaitans]

Variety of translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures

 

......Augustine

 

   

[Jeffrey]

Then why does your profile say you belong to a Reformed church, and you are quoting Augustine, neither of which believe God loves the whole world other than the elect'? 

and again, I ask, what does the Scriptures say?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

​Thats what we believe

 

 Sounds to me like you just picked some random facts and ran with them, so that you could come in here to criticize the IFB all the time.

No, truth is truth, regardless who says them. I listen and read from different people, Driscoll, Michael Horton, Daniel Wallace and going to start here soon with NT Wright. Truth isn't just in the IFB

[Jeffrey]

Thanks for giving us the title of "leading the league".  I have also noticed that you purposely did not answer James questions, which would lead me to believe that you do not have answers. Is that True? Is so, we would love to help you.

Thanks, but no thanks. I had my fill of standards and morality based gospel. I am quite content now with the grace of Jesus, thank you

[No Nicolaitans]

Thanks, but no thanks. I had my fill of standards and morality based gospel. I am quite content now with the grace of Jesus, thank you

 

As much as today's "Christian Liberty" and "Grace-living" Christianity abhors so-called "holy living"...it's still in the Bible.  We are to be a holy people...separate from the world.  Yes, many IFBs are hung up on standards...so much so that they thunder it often and loud from pulpits. In doing so, they instill a sense of duty (and fear at times) from the congregants to live a certain way; otherwise, they're not right with God. This often leads to the congregants living to please their pastor rather than the Lord.  It also often leads to modern-day Phariseeism and whited sepulchers full of dead men's bones.

 

However, that in no way negates the fact that it is still biblical.  Hundreds (if not thousands) have left IFB churches...disenchanted with the standards that are pushed. They blame the pastors and churches, when actually the pastors, churches, AND those who leave all share the blame in many cases.

 

The disenchanted ones either leave Christ altogether (which is very telling on their part), or they find a "Christian Liberty/Grace Living" church that goes in the complete opposite direction from what they've come out of.  They go from one extreme to the other...from trying to please God in the flesh to pleasing the flesh under the cloak of grace and liberty.  Both are unpleasing to God.

 

We are to live holy lives...we're commanded to.  We are to be separate from the world...we're commanded to.  And when you do it to please the Lord rather than man, it's not driven by a hard task-master. It's done out of love for the one who gave everything for you...the Lord Jesus Christ...and that makes all of the difference.

 

I humbly warn you Jeffrey...based on God's word...

 

Romans 6:18

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:1

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

 

Galatians 5:13

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

 

1 Peter 2:16

As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

 

Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

[Pastor Matt]

I have also noticed that you purposely did not answer James questions, which would lead me to believe that you do not have answers. Is that True? Is so, we would love to help you.

Thanks, but no thanks. I had my fill of standards and morality based gospel. I am quite content now with the grace of Jesus, thank you

 

Sorry to hear that.

I love to learn more (that is why I'm on here), and that is why I talk to pastors and laymen of different camps all the time. I do it to gain more insight and grow closer to the Lord. I want to encourage you to use Scripture and explain it. Many false teachings are out there because someone is taking a verse out of context, or does not understand the meaning a certain verse.

 

It is your choice not to answer James questions, but if you have the "truth" from Scripture why not share it with us? 

 

One more thing. Can you show me where I have a standards and morality based Gospel? Since you know so much about what I believe, I'm hoping to understand myself a little better.

 

I'm off to go  soul-winning. Can you pray with me for souls to be saved and lives turned back to God? I would appreciate it. Thank you.

[Jeffrey]

 

Sorry to hear that.

I love to learn more (that is why I'm on here), and that is why I talk to pastors and laymen of different camps all the time.

Who are these pastors from which camps? Are they Lutheran? Presbyterian? Catholic? Are they Reformed? or are they Fundamentalists?

 

 

I want to encourage you to use Scripture and explain it. Many false teachings are out there because someone is taking a verse out of context, or does not understand the meaning a certain verse.

Oh i have used Scripture to back up my points here, you can look back to my Defense of Alcohol thread, and see that I used Scripture from the OP an even used it in my answer here

 

 

It is your choice not to answer James questions, but if you have the "truth" from Scripture why not share it with us? 

I answered it, I'm sorry it wasn't the answer you were looking for

 

 

One more thing. Can you show me where I have a standards and morality based Gospel? Since you know so much about what I believe, I'm hoping to understand myself a little better.

I don't know you, I gave my answer again. I based my answer on what I said earlier, remember?

 

 

After I was converted in 1990 I joined an IFB church and was a member of one until of May 2011. through many states through visiting many ministries, many hold to the same truths

 

 

 

I'm off to go  soul-winning. Can you pray with me for souls to be saved and lives turned back to God? I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Sure, as long as you don't guilt them into a decision based on a '"1-2-3 repeat this prayer after me". You see salvation is more than that....Eph 1:4-8 Jn 11:25-26 ; Phil 1:6

 At my church, we don't go "soulwinning". we see it as our entire lives we are out on visitation, whether home, in the neighborhood, at work, at kids soccer games(btw, more than half of my kids teams, the families are made up of believers) or hanging out at my neighborhood cigar lounge, we are always looking to plant, or water.....

[No Nicolaitans]

Variety of translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures

 

......Augustine

 

    

[Pastor Matt]

Who are these pastors from which camps? Are they Lutheran? Presbyterian? Catholic? Are they Reformed? or are they Fundamentalists?

They have ranged from Catholic Priests to Fundamentalists.
 

I answered it, I'm sorry it wasn't the answer you were looking for

My apologies, the answer I was looking for was for your explanation of Scripture, not just posting a reference. Seeing how we interpret verses differently, I thought it would only make sense for your explanation of them.
 

I don't know you, I gave my answer again. I based my answer on what I said earlier, remember?

Again, the answer I was looking for was for your explanation of Scripture.
 

Sure, as long as you don't guilt them into a decision based on a '"1-2-3 repeat this prayer after me". You see salvation is more than that....Eph 1:4-8 Jn 11:25-26 ; Phil 1:6

What do you know about me that would imply that I would do that? I preach against 1-2-3 prayers all the time, and I'm not sure why you are stereotyping IFB's. 
 

At my church, we don't go "soulwinning". we see it as our entire lives we are out on visitation, whether home, in the neighborhood, at work, at kids soccer games

We do that too, but we also set up a time to go out to reach those we normally would never come in contact while  out.
 
I do not understand your response to another question. My question was "One more thing. Can you show me where I have a standards and morality based Gospel? Since you know so much about what I believe, I'm hoping to understand myself a little better". Your answer was "I don't know you, I gave my answer again. I based my answer on what I said earlier, remember?" Can you point me to your answer? I just mentioned how you know I have a standards and mortality based Gospel. You would have to know me to make that assumption and you stated you do not know me. I'm confused on your answer and I'm hoping you can shed some light on it for me. Thank you.

[Miss Daisy]

Jeffrey won't dispense any light on any issue only shadows.