tax protester

[Colin Stolzer]

Who is our caesar?? I would tend to believe it is those who govern over us. Set our laws. Have a legal right to enforce them. Whe we belong to a country' date=' those governing would be our "caesar". [b']We the People of the United States, the preamblem to the Constitution, makes us belong to the United states. Not as much as God, but earthly we belong to the United states as much as Paul was a roman. We are of the United states. Now as being part of this great nation, who do we say that are in charge of our laws?? Article 1 Section 1 All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives. Article 2 section 1 The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice-President chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows. So that places us as being under them in a legal stand point. We have the right to not elect them the next term, and have someone overturn their possition, but as long as they are in office, they are over us legaly. How did they get there??? We put them there!!!

Now to paying taxes. Amendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

You can argue what the incomes means. But however you argue, it still says they have a right to tax. Whether they meant for it to be handled as it is today, or not, we have the constitution saying they have a right to tax income. We have the Bible saying to render taxes unto caesar. I am with kitagrl, how much planer can it get.



Matthew 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

The only record of the 16th Amendment having been confirmed was a proclamation made by the Secretary of State Philander Knox on February 25, 1913, wherein he simply declared it to be "in effect", but never stating it was lawfully ratified.

Even if the 16th Amendment were properly ratified, according to Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution, it has always been unconstitutional for the U.S. Federal Government to directly tax We the People in their property, wages, salaries, or earnings. The judges of the U.S. Supreme Court rejected any claims that the 16th Amendment changed the constitutional limits on direct taxes in Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R. Co., 240 U.S. 1, when they ruled that it "created no new power of taxation" and that it "did not change the constitutional limitations which forbid any direct taxation of individuals"

Could you please explain how Matt 5:41 applies to my hypothetical question, I'm not understanding what you are trying to say with that verse.

C

[Colin Stolzer]

Does anyone recall the American Revolution that was pushed into being by those protesting tax laws imposed upon them by their governmental leaders?

Since the Husband question needs more definition for you to answer it I'll come back to it later maybe. How about this instead, Do you believe this country was founded on Christian principles with God's blessing?

C

That's were I was headed with this question, If you believe that this country was founded by godly men on biblical principles, then how do you explain them being in direct rebellion of their monarchy over taxes. You can't have it both ways either this was a Godly nation built on biblical principals blessed by God, or it is a nation built on rebellion, both to England and in rebellion of Gods word. Either Romans 13 applies to all gov'ts at all times and the united States of America has always been in rebellion, or it doesn't apply the way most people try to apply it. It can't be both.

C

[trc123]

That's were I was headed with this question, If you believe that this country was founded by godly men on biblical principles, then how do you explain them being in direct rebellion of their monarchy over taxes. You can't have it both ways either this was a Godly nation built on biblical principals blessed by God, or it is a nation built on rebellion, both to England and in rebellion of Gods word. Either Romans 13 applies to all gov'ts at all times and the united States of America has always been in rebellion, or it doesn't apply the way most people try to apply it. It can't be both.

C

Were they in conflict and rebellion due to taxes in general or was it because the colonies were being hit with taxes (sometimes disproportionately) and had no representation in British Parliament?

[rancher824]

The only record of the 16th Amendment having been confirmed was a proclamation made by the Secretary of State Philander Knox on February 25, 1913, wherein he simply declared it to be "in effect", but never stating it was lawfully ratified.

Even if the 16th Amendment were properly ratified, according to Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution, it has always been unconstitutional for the U.S. Federal Government to directly tax We the People in their property, wages, salaries, or earnings. The judges of the U.S. Supreme Court rejected any claims that the 16th Amendment changed the constitutional limits on direct taxes in Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R. Co., 240 U.S. 1, when they ruled that it "created no new power of taxation" and that it "did not change the constitutional limitations which forbid any direct taxation of individuals"

Could you please explain how Matt 5:41 applies to my hypothetical question, I'm not understanding what you are trying to say with that verse.

C

On my way out the door, so can't say much. But Matt 5:41 from my understanding is refuring to a Roman soldier had the right to compel a person to carry his load for up to a certain distance. The Bible says if they compel you, go twice as far as they can compel you. So my point would be Biblically if they made a law saying that I had to cross that highway, I should be willing to come back across as well. And yes I admit the revulution was rising up against taxation. But I believe they paid the tax on tea until the boston tea party, also known as the beginning of the war!!! If you don't believe in paying the taxes that the govt asks of you, rebel and raise up an army to fight. I for one intend to keep paying my taxes.

[trc123]

On my way out the door' date=' so can't say much. But Matt 5:41 from my understanding is refuring to a Roman soldier had the right to compel a person to carry his load for up to a certain distance. The Bible says if they compel you, go twice as far as they can compel you. So my point would be Biblically if they made a law saying that I had to cross that highway, I should be willing to come back across as well. And yes I admit the revulution was rising up against taxation. But I believe they paid the tax on tea until the boston tea party, also known as the beginning of the war!!! If you don't believe in paying the taxes that the govt asks of you, rebel and raise up an army to fight. I for one intend to keep paying my taxes.[/quote']

Again I'll ask, were the colonialists against all taxes or the fact the British Crown levied the taxes against the colonies without them having any representation in the British Parliament and thus they had no recourse, nor way to legally protest the taxes?

[Colin Stolzer]

Again I'll ask, were the colonialists against all taxes or the fact the British Crown levied the taxes against the colonies without them having any representation in the British Parliament and thus they had no recourse, nor way to legally protest the taxes?
Were they in conflict and rebellion due to taxes in general or was it because the colonies were being hit with taxes (sometimes disproportionately) and had no representation in British Parliament?

I don't disagree that they didn't have representation, and were being taxed disproportionately, but then you still need to back it up with scripture. If you believe that Romans 13 as applied by "most" people is the absolute in God's answer to Gov't Authority, then you need to show me the scripture that allowed the Founding Fathers to rebel and still be in God's will.

C

[deafnva77]

Our founders were mostly rebelling against England Religion. That type of rebel is ok. I know there were other reasons though, but the main one was over religion.

[Colin Stolzer]

Our founders were mostly rebelling against England Religion. That type of rebel is ok. I know there were other reasons though' date=' but the main one was over religion.[/quote']
You need to reread your history, some people came here for religious freedom, but that was not the primary reason for the revolution. At the time of the Revolution the Church of England was well established here along with several other denominations.

C

[trc123]

I don't disagree that they didn't have representation, and were being taxed disproportionately, but then you still need to back it up with scripture. If you believe that Romans 13 as applied by "most" people is the absolute in God's answer to Gov't Authority, then you need to show me the scripture that allowed the Founding Fathers to rebel and still be in God's will.

C

I'm not arguing for either side on that; I was just asking a question for the reason they revolted. I didn't think they were rebelling because of being taxed; but rather for being taxed and not having representation in British Parliament; which under the laws of Great Britain at the time allowed for that but there were certain political forces preventing it.

[HappyChristian]

Most people don't realize this - our "public officials" are actually supposed to be public servants. They are elected to represent the people, not rule them. Interestingly, yesterday at our "I Love America Day," we had John Stormer as a guest speaker. One of the things he said was that for at least the last 80 years, if not the last 100, students have not been taught the proper way to think about our government.

Did anyone know that, in the IRS' own yellow book, paying taxes is listed as being voluntary? How many of you volunteer to have taxes taken out of your paycheck? None - and those who protest usually go to jail. Why? Because the courts of this land are the product of the lack of proper teaching of the role of government in this supposed to be constitutional republic.

In a republic, the people are Ceasar. Unfortunately, we are no longer a constitutional republic. We have been fed the lie that we are a democracy and that the government is all wise and we should just bow the knee to all of their demands. And many Christians fall into that trap by quoting scripture that doesn't really apply.

[Anon]

Then, HC, why do you pay taxes?

[HappyChristian]

Then' date=' HC, why do you pay taxes?[/quote']
Because if we don't, we will go to jail. How's that for voluntary taxes?

[Anon]

Okayyyyy sooooo since you pay taxes rather than go to jail, then its not a Biblical conviction. Right?

I'm not arguing the taxes as much as I am arguing the OP's opinion that he is being Biblical in being a tax evader.

[HappyChristian]

But you see, he does believe that - and he has proven his belief by living it out. I do not make the decisions in our family, my hubby does. CP does for his. And he lives them. I say good for him. I do not think he is being unscriptural by not paying them. Nor do I believe someone who does pay them is unscriptural. Sound wishy washy? Maybe it does. But really it isn't. People should have a choice - if, as the IRS (which is an unconstitutional organization, BTW) says it's voluntary. But most who choose end up in jail. I know some who haven't and I say more power to 'em!

[Anon]

Okay. Agree to disagree, I guess! I just think that sitting in jail without a good reason is not following the Bible...but....if the OP feels it a good reason...hey...*shrugs*
:lol