In Defense Of Alcohol, God's Blessing To Man

[GraceSaved]

"Look not" is not teaching abstinence.  It's about self-control.

[GraceSaved]

they are to be avoided both the person and arguments. 

Yet you're replying and not avoiding.

[GraceSaved]

the Application of these verse allows anything that causes strife's of words (meaning arguing over words), contentions, unlearned questions no mater what they are and who uses them they are to be avoided both the person and arguments. 

"Unlearned" in the doctrine of Christ.

 

This is a discussion on a forum.  I don't see arguing, yet.

[TheSword]

That advice is given to those who "seeks" after it and drinks too much of it. Verse 30.  They shouldn't even "look" at it.  It's advice against excessive drinking.  Nothing about abstinence.  

 

"Look not" is not teaching abstinence.  It's about self-control.

 

Not exactly. The grammar and language shows that the exhortation to "look not" is directed at the son in contrast to those that "tarry long" and draws a sharp distinction between the two. As a proverb, it is intended to read as if you were the one being addressed; i.e. as the son who is supposed to "look not." To read it as if it's talking about someone else entirely is really to say that it doesn't apply to you at all and that means we can pick and choose which proverbs we want to follow.

 

Additionally, the contrast between "look not" and "they that tarry" is so sharp that total avoidance is certainly within the realm of accurate interpretation. It gives an either-or scenario: either look not and avoid these consequences or tarry long and suffer these consequences. In order to get a moderationist interpretation out of these verses you have to read in a presupposition or assumption because there is no middle-ground in the passage. The semantic range of "look" is as follows, and regardless of what stem it is in, all available senses/definitions speak of looking or giving attention and none are in any way related to self-control (incidentally, it is in the Qal stem):

 

to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider

1. (Qal)
   1. to see
   2. to see, perceive
   3. to see, have vision
   4. to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
   5. to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish
   6. to look at, gaze at
2. (Niphal)
   1. to appear, present oneself
   2. to be seen
   3. to be visible
3. (Pual) to be seen
4. (Hiphil)
   1. to cause to see, show
   2. to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at
5. (Hophal)
   1. to be caused to see, be shown
   2. to be exhibited to
6. (Hithpael) to look at each other, face

[Miss Daisy]

Someone used Wikipedia on previous page as a reference for alcohol in the Bible. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone can add to the definition. You or I can add to any definition or explanation.

 

Quoting Luther is NOT quoting the Bible. Luther's writings are NOT above God's!

[GraceSaved]

Someone used Wikipedia on previous page as a reference for alcohol in the Bible. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone can add to the definition. You or I can add to any definition or explanation.

 

Quoting Luther is NOT quoting the Bible. Luther's writings are NOT above God's!

So we should never refer to or use commentaries, dictionaries, encyclopedias, history books, any man-written literature besides the Bible?  We can as long as it doesn't contradict what the Bible says.  I didn't see any contradictions in the site provided.  If you did, please let me know.

[swathdiver]

There are nearly 200 verses that prove this fool wrong.  One of the clearest is that we're not even to look at it.

 

As recently as about 60 years ago, dictionaries still referred to grape juice with the word wine.  Context is key.  This fellow has no discernment when it comes to his beloved enemy.

 

"The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble." - Proverbs 4:19

[GraceSaved]

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

[GraceSaved]

There are nearly 200 verses that prove this fool wrong.  One of the clearest is that we're not even to look at it.

 

As recently as about 60 years ago, dictionaries still referred to grape juice with the word wine.  Context is key.  This fellow has no discernment when it comes to his beloved enemy.

It only becomes an enemy if it's abused as with anything in life.  Yes.  Please read the context.  The Proverbs quotes above is clearly talking about a person in a drunken state.

 

So a person who has an alcoholic beverage once in a while are perverse, has red eyes, woes, sorrows, babbling, wounds without cause, have hallucinations, pass out just to wake up and "seek" another drink?  People who cannot use self-control are to "look not."

[GraceSaved]

"this fool"

Why resort to name-calling? 

[GraceSaved]

If wine is grape juice then why not just call it "grape juice."  Has the meaning of "wine" and "juice" changed over time?  Wine is wine and juice is juice.  Milk is milk.  Honey is honey.  If it was just juice, then there wouldn't be warnings of drinking it in excess.

[swathdiver]

Why resort to name-calling? 

 

I'm marking you as a warning to others.  This is a baptist forum.  You come in here with your worldly ideas and perversions and try to tell us that your wickedness is ok.

 

And the best verse of all against you "sipping saints":

 

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." - Proverbs 20:1

[GraceSaved]

If you ask anybody to go buy some wine would they come home with a bottle of juice?

[GraceSaved]

I'm marking you as a warning to others.  This is a baptist forum.  You come in here with your worldly ideas and perversions and try to tell us that your wickedness is ok.

 

And the best verse of all against you "sipping saints":

 

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." - Proverbs 20:1

How does wine mock, rage and deceive?  By drinking too much of it.

[GraceSaved]

I'm marking you  What does that mean?  Sounds like something from the Scarlet Letter.