In Defense Of Alcohol, God's Blessing To Man

[1John2:15-17]

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1 KJV)

[Jeffrey]

There's no teaching that it wasn't either; that's an argument from silence. In fact no one that I've been able to find in at least the first three centuries even touched on the issue, likely because it wasn't an overly important or contentious one at the time, especially when compared to the issues of the day. You didn't want to use extra-biblical writings for this discussion so I've purposely left all of the out (modern and ancient), even though you prefer to rely on the lack of historical specifically about alcohol versus juice. Although, if the linguistic differentiation did not occur until the last century or so as I stated, there would be no discussion on it whatsoever anyway.

 

If you can find something prior to the 1800's knock yourself out, here I'll start

 

“Beer is made by men, wine by God.” Martin Luther

 

“Whoever drinks beer, he is quick to sleep; whoever sleeps long, does not sin; whoever does not sin, enters Heaven! Thus, let us drink beer!” Martin Luther

 

1. Drunkenness is a shameful abuse of a “noble and most precious gift of God.” John Calvin
2. “Tomorrow I have to lecture on the drunkenness of Noah, so I should drink enough this evening to be able to talk about that wickedness as one who knows by experience.” Martin Luther
3. ”it is lawful to use wine not only in cases of necessity, but also thereby to make us merry.” John Calvin
4.  

 

 

You did, however, want to use Hebrew and Greek and everything I've said is 100% accurate in that respect. You may disagree with the the interpretation of things such as a sugar high or the emotions of the governor of the wedding feast, but you can't really argue with the linguistic/historical-linguistic facts. You would need some pretty good evidence to refute anything I said about what the different words mean, to include that their semantic ranges included both fermented and unfermented juice and the different word used in Acts 2.The question remains, Why would they be accused of being drunk if the wine they were talking about was grape juice?

 

Those are just facts we have to work with. If you interpret them differently, that's fine; let's talk about that. However, the facts are facts regardless of our point of view.

 

I would guess that it's only a stretch because you don't think the facts I presented are accurate. Grammar and sentence structure Im no expert, iam going on the context of Scripture and church history and realizing the Temperance Movement gave birth to the grape juice theory

 

 

[DaveW]

You are going to use two ex-catholics to discuss alcohol?

You can't be serious........

[Jeffrey]

You are going to use two ex-catholics to discuss alcohol?

You can't be serious........

Wow, you really are showing your ignorance, Im an ex Catholic Besides, Luther and Calvin are men God used to during the Reformation period

[Jeffrey]

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1 KJV)

Is 55:1Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters,

and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat;
yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

 

Psalm 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle,

and herb for the service of man:
that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
15 

                15 and wine that maketh glad the heart of man,
and oil to make his face to shine,

and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart. 

 

Judges 9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? 

[DaveW]

Not ignorance at all.

It is well known that the Catholic clergy in particular abuse alcohol, and they care very little for the Word of God.
As to the two men you quote, neither of them moved far from Catholicism, and both heavily persecuted true Christians.

Luther at least has indications of a possible salvation experience, but I have never seen a salvation testimony from Calvin, and when I have asked people to show me I have NEVER had anyone present one.

You don't call that sort of witness to a trial........

[ASongOfDegrees]

Yes, Hebrews fermented wine but they also watered down their fermented wine before drinking until it had no effect. Even their fermented wine didn't have the kick like wine today because they didn't have the necessary sugar and yeast to add to it. The booze we have today (including wine) is much higher in alcohol content so it really can't be compared. The same equivalent would be comparing natural Indian cigarettes to the cigarettes that the big corporation put out. Indians smokes have virtually no nicotine in them while the common brand names are loaded with nicotine. This is why nobody smokes Spirit brand cigarettes just like all the Christians rushing to find scripture to back their imbibing would never drink the kind of wine or strong drink they had 2,000 years ago So any comparison of the booze from 2,000 years ago and today is really disingenuous and just another attempt to find scripture to back your vice and ease your conscience.

[John81]

So if a Christian wants a drink of wine they should make their own weak wine and then mix it with a heaping helping of water. Got it!

 

(No, I'm not going to do that!!)

 

I am, however, enjoying a glass of orange juice right now.

[Jeffrey]

Yes, Hebrews fermented wine but they also watered down their fermented wine before drinking until it had no effect. Even their fermented wine didn't have the kick like wine today because they didn't have the necessary sugar and yeast to add to it. The booze we have today (including wine) is much higher in alcohol content so it really can't be compared. The same equivalent would be comparing natural Indian cigarettes to the cigarettes that the big corporation put out. Indians smokes have virtually no nicotine in them while the common brand names are loaded with nicotine. This is why nobody smokes Spirit brand cigarettes just like all the Christians rushing to find scripture to back their imbibing would never drink the kind of wine or strong drink they had 2,000 years ago So any comparison of the booze from 2,000 years ago and today is really disingenuous and just another attempt to find scripture to back your vice and ease your conscience.

I appreciate you at least admit that much, thank you! but heres the rub, whether you drink with minuscules amounts of wine, or barrel strength whiskey, the issue is drunkenness, if you drink a little whiskey or allot of wine, self control is the issue 

[John81]

Coweieio

[Jeffrey]

Not ignorance at all.

It is well known that the Catholic clergy in particular abuse alcohol, and they care very little for the Word of God.
As to the two men you quote, neither of them moved far from Catholicism, and both heavily persecuted true Christians.

It is well known that the IFB clergy in particular sexual abuse, and they care little for the Word of God (Jack Hyles,Jack Schaap, Bill Gothard, BJU, Jeremy Whitman) and former president of the FPF (Fundamnetal Baptist Fellowship)  Rod Bell Sr. arrested for public intoxication

neither of them moved far from Fundamentalism, and both heavily persecuted true Christians.

[banner over me was love]

We have covered alot of this in the "Christians Falling...." thread, but I have said that I would start this so, here goes. To start, I will not bring in other Christians who partake, to quote from, I will just use Strongs for defination sake, but primarily use Scripture. I know it will be hard for many to accept. It was for me, I literally stayed up nights trying wrap my mind around this because this wasn't what I was taught, and it is hard to believe that people you love would be wrong.

 

To start off, I will readily admit that Scripture is clear on the sin of drunkeness, Proverbs is chock full of warnings of excess of alcohol. But nowhere does it condemn the use of it but it condemns the abuse of it. ..

 

 

Brother Jeffrey,

 

Alcohol cannot be defended from a Biblical standpoint, as alcohol is the very venom of the serpent, and neither can it be defended from a scientific standpoint.

 

Would you be willing to consider the information of intense and indepth study from the Scripture, considering every known passage in the subject?

 

I too had to do my own study on this, and praying unto God for wisdom and understanding, the Bible was opened, and text after text considered, until the whole was seen.

 

I would like to share with you that the Bible speaks of two 'kinds' of "wine".  The wine of blessing, and the wine of cursing, and that the Bible specifically talks about the very nature of the these two, not simply amounts/quantities/abuse.

 

I will especially be covering Deuteronomy 14:26, especially connected with the plan of Redemption.

 

If you do desire to consider, I will then shortly create a new thread on it, for everyone's benefit and perusal.

[heartstrings]

It is well known that the IFB clergy in particular sexual abuse, and they care little for the Word of God (Jack Hyles,Jack Schaap, Bill Gothard, BJU, Jeremy Whitman) and former president of the FPF (Fundamnetal Baptist Fellowship)  Rod Bell Sr. arrested for public intoxication

neither of them moved far from Fundamentalism, and both heavily persecuted true Christians.

Really? A handful out of hundreds? 

Sir, the word of God says "wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging...." You and I can say whatever we want, and interpret the Word of God any way we want to justify our sin but that doesn't change it.

[TheSword]

 

 

 

I don't have long to do an in-depth search tonight, but for a quick example consider a quote from Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 AD) in Dialogue with Trypho:

 

"Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto those that are mighty among you, who drink wine, who are men of strength, who mingle strong drink! who justify the wicked for a reward, and take away justice from the righteous!"

 

 

Also, I'm not sure Martin Luther is the best one to follow as an example regarding questionable or debatable behaviors:

 

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly." - Martin Luther

 

You should NEVER encourage someone to willfully sin....It doesn't seem like he read Romans 6:1-13 with any discernment:

¹What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

² God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

³ Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

⁴ Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

⁵ For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

⁶ Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

⁷ For he that is dead is freed from sin.

⁸ Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

⁹ Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

¹⁰ For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

¹¹ Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

¹² Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

¹³ Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 

 

Did you consider any of the facts I posted that you'd like to discuss the interpretation of? If you can make a good argument for a better meaning I'm all too happy to change my mind on it.

[Jeffrey]

You also have to be careful using the term licquor.  It is certainly true that the words translated wine (yâyin) and strong drink (šēḵār) are different in the Old Testament and reflect different levels of alcoholic content.  However, keep in mind that distillation of alcohol did not come about until the 12^th century (some say 7th century in the Near East; either way it's way later than any biblical writing) so the max alcoholic content of “strong drink” could be no more than 12%-15% and liquor as we know it did not exist.  The wine that we know of today falls in this category at an average of 13.5%.  Today, strong drink would definitely include all liqeuers and liquors (which can go up to at least 75% - Bacardi 151) 

I wouldnt argue with you on this

 

 

 but just because the max available has changed this doesn't mean that the base standard of what constitutes "strong drink" has.  Wine as we know it today was, and therefore still is, considered "strong drink."  Of all the times “strong drink” is found in the Bible, it is always translated from the same word and is never condoned or used in a positive context.  In every other instance but Deu 14:26 its context is always that of either prohibition or condemnation. 

Numbers 28:7, also.  The idea behind Deut 14:26 is that God enabled us to have it, drink it and give thanks to Him for it. Again, temperance is the key to enjoying it. Liquor, food and sex are all things that can become idols unto themselves though they are gifts from God

 

 

 

 you also have to understand how those two items were generally used as a preservative or purifier for water rather an always drunk straight.  The common method was to boil the wine down to a syrup-type substance called must, which would burn away any alcohol or microbes, and then mixed with water to create a safe and refreshing drink.

 

Can you show me this in Scripture?