United Church Of God

[Ukulelemike]

Which is one of the reason we are commanded to make disciples. For many new believers, no one is discipling them, some don't even know enough to know about baptism. Some believers sit in watered down churches for years, not knowing any better.

And this is the fruit of the quick-prayerism tendency today.

[Calvary]

It means they are still rebellious if they know they're supposed to get baptized and become a member of a New Testament Church and don't.  

 

Hebrews 6:4-6:

 

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

 

The Lord saved me on my back porch.  I didn't know any Christians, nobody witnessed to me person to person and didn't read a bible tract.  After salvation I instinctively knew (Holy Spirit) that I had to start attending church and get baptized.  Also bought a bible because I knew that it would be kind of important to know what God's Word says, to learn what He expects from us.  I was surrendered and ready to change and do the right thing, to turn from my worldly, devilish ways, to serve our living God.

 

Hebrews 6 teaches us two things.  First, that once saved, always saved.  Second, that if we profess Christ and then go live like the devil we weren't saved to begin with.  That doesn't mean we don't sin but we sure don't fall away either.  It's one thing to believe in Jesus, most do.  Quite another to believe ON Jesus Christ and accept him as Lord and Savior.  

 

 

 

No, that example doesn't teach that.  It does teach that a believer goes to heaven when they die.  Was the thief a church or part of the Body of Christ?  No, he obviously didn't have time for that but he does live today with Christ.

 

 

Say what?? That´s utter nonsense. You are spouting baptismal regeneration, whether you think so or not. Water baptism does not put me in the Body of Christ. It may make me a member of a local church polity, but a member of the Body of Christ? Never.

[Ukulelemike]

Say what?? That´s utter nonsense. You are spouting baptismal regeneration, whether you think so or not. Water baptism does not put me in the Body of Christ. It may make me a member of a local church polity, but a member of the Body of Christ? Never.

Not seeing baptismal regeneration in his answer-same thing I believe-we get baptized out of obedience. It won't get us more saved, but it is an act of obedience and thos who refuse it are rebellious, and it MAY be a sign that they aren't saved at all. Should we not desire to obey the Lord, especially in such an easy area as baptism?

 

I think people fear baptism because they don't understand it. The world has such weird ideas about baptism. I have had many parents tell me they wanted their child to be baptized, beclieving it would secure them for heaven, and I carefully explained it was an act of obedience by one who has received Jesus as Saviour. Often they just go look for another church who WILL baptize their baby. But people often carry these worldly, mystical ideas about baptism into their salvation and it can make it hard to get around it.

[Covenanter]

Not seeing baptismal regeneration in his answer-same thing I believe-we get baptized out of obedience. It won't get us more saved, but it is an act of obedience and thos who refuse it are rebellious, and it MAY be a sign that they aren't saved at all. Should we not desire to obey the Lord, especially in such an easy area as baptism?

 

I think people fear baptism because they don't understand it. The world has such weird ideas about baptism. I have had many parents tell me they wanted their child to be baptized, beclieving it would secure them for heaven, and I carefully explained it was an act of obedience by one who has received Jesus as Saviour. Often they just go look for another church who WILL baptize their baby. But people often carry these worldly, mystical ideas about baptism into their salvation and it can make it hard to get around it.

 

Agreed on both counts - baptism is given an important place in Scripture so to regard it as optional is disobedience.

 

We had a lady in our church determined to get her teenage daughter baptised. We refused - we hold to baptism of believers. The local Baptist Union church refused - they wanted her to become a church member. Mum eventually found a church prepared to baptise her - "now she is born again."

 

We had a baptism yesterday - an Sikh Indian girl came over to stay with her aunt for 2 months - with strict instructions not to convert to her aunt's religion. She gave a wonderful testimony!

[Calvary]

Not seeing baptismal regeneration in his answer-same thing I believe-we get baptized out of obedience. It won't get us more saved, but it is an act of obedience and thos who refuse it are rebellious, and it MAY be a sign that they aren't saved at all. Should we not desire to obey the Lord, especially in such an easy area as baptism?

 

I think people fear baptism because they don't understand it. The world has such weird ideas about baptism. I have had many parents tell me they wanted their child to be baptized, beclieving it would secure them for heaven, and I carefully explained it was an act of obedience by one who has received Jesus as Saviour. Often they just go look for another church who WILL baptize their baby. But people often carry these worldly, mystical ideas about baptism into their salvation and it can make it hard to get around it.

 

Anyone who teaches that water baptism puts one in the Body of Christ, is teaching heresy. Swath in a previous post made that statement. This last statement is again, a conclusion that because the thief on the cross was not in fact baptized in water, he therefore is not a part of the Body of Christ. That Mike, is heresy. Period. We are not talking about polemics, and neither is the issue about any motive for water baptism, to which I say, obedience is principle, My issue with Sawth is his interchangeable terms of local church and Body of Christ. They are not, never have been and cannot be one and the same.

 

I continue to be amazed at the lack of biblical defense mods on this site. Many times blatant heretical statements stand unopposed. Swathdivers statement in an earlier post on this thread is blatantly false, and not one mod said a word. Wow.

 

I think I´m gonna sign off and leave you folks to yourselves.

 

God bless,

 

calvary

[DaveW]

....My issue with Sawth is his interchangeable terms of local church and Body of Christ. They are not, never have been and cannot be one and the same.

Please don't take this the wrong way - I am looking for information, not argument.

There are actually many places where the term 'body' is used in relation to local church.
Can you point to a passage that is specifically and unequivocally speaking of the body of Christ as ONLY all believers and not the local church?

Thanks,
Dave

[John81]

Not seeing baptismal regeneration in his answer-same thing I believe-we get baptized out of obedience. It won't get us more saved, but it is an act of obedience and thos who refuse it are rebellious, and it MAY be a sign that they aren't saved at all. Should we not desire to obey the Lord, especially in such an easy area as baptism?

 

I think people fear baptism because they don't understand it. The world has such weird ideas about baptism. I have had many parents tell me they wanted their child to be baptized, beclieving it would secure them for heaven, and I carefully explained it was an act of obedience by one who has received Jesus as Saviour. Often they just go look for another church who WILL baptize their baby. But people often carry these worldly, mystical ideas about baptism into their salvation and it can make it hard to get around it.

In some cases it seems the lack of understanding goes even deeper. This was certainly true in my own case, as well as was the case with many I've known over the years. When I was saved I had no understanding of baptism at all. Eventually I read about being baptized but didn't see it as a command. There was also things I read with regards to baptism and salvation, some scriptural, some not, with further confused the issue. Even when I came to think I should probably be baptized, I didn't understand it as a command or know the significance of baptism. At that point, the main thing that kept me from being baptized was I didn't have a church home, the church I had been attending went all-out Charismatic with the arrival of a new pastor so I left, and the only Christians (real Christians) were as spiritually young and immature as I. In my case it wasn't until God placed a solid Christian in my life and we became good friends, he introduced me to his Baptist pastor, I attended his men's Bible study, and all this finally led to me being baptized by that Baptist pastor.

 

So, if I was in rebellion during the time I wasn't baptized, it wasn't a matter of my choosing to rebel in that area, but one of ignorance.

 

Others I've known who were saved but not baptized until much later have related their own ignorance of baptism, lack of discipleship, lack of understanding. Some also had come from backgrounds which taught baptism as necessary for salvation, which they came to believe wasn't true, so in an effort to make sure they were simply saved by grace through faith, they avoided baptism because they didn't want to be seen as being baptized to be saved. Again, much ignorance involved.

 

Once again, much of this is due to a lack of discipleship. Jesus told us to make disciples, not converts, yet the most common practice today seems to be pushing folks to "just repeat this prayer and you'll go to heaven", then marking them down as "another led to Christ", and moving on, leaving the "new convert" to either wonder off still in their sins, or if they are born again, to wonder off as a lost lamb among wolves, with no guidance or protection.

[swathdiver]

Anyone who teaches that water baptism puts one in the Body of Christ, is teaching heresy. Swath in a previous post made that statement. This last statement is again, a conclusion that because the thief on the cross was not in fact baptized in water, he therefore is not a part of the Body of Christ. That Mike, is heresy. Period. We are not talking about polemics, and neither is the issue about any motive for water baptism, to which I say, obedience is principle, My issue with Sawth is his interchangeable terms of local church and Body of Christ. They are not, never have been and cannot be one and the same.

 

I continue to be amazed at the lack of biblical defense mods on this site. Many times blatant heretical statements stand unopposed. Swathdivers statement in an earlier post on this thread is blatantly false, and not one mod said a word. Wow.

 

I think I´m gonna sign off and leave you folks to yourselves.

 

God bless,

 

calvary

 

Not teaching or preaching baptismal regeneration at all.  Baptism is a believer's first outward sign of obedience to God and faith in Jesus Christ AND is also done once for entry into a New Testament Church.  The New Testament Church is the Body of Christ.  

 

I am struggling with friends over this very issue, they believe in the invisible, universal church, believing they are a church and as individuals the literal Body of Christ.  Unless I'm missing something, the local church is the Body of Christ.

 

 

Please don't take this the wrong way - I am looking for information, not argument.

There are actually many places where the term 'body' is used in relation to local church.
Can you point to a passage that is specifically and unequivocally speaking of the body of Christ as ONLY all believers and not the local church?

Thanks,
Dave

 

Same here!

[Left the Bldg]

I'm confused about what is being said here.  Just looking for clarification and not trying to dispute.  So...am I understanding this correctly?  If you are a member of a local church, that makes you part of the body of Christ?  And if you are not a member of a local church, then you are not part of the body of Christ?  Don't you become part of the body of Christ at salvation?  I'll wait for an answer to that before I ask the other questions I have in mind as not to cause confusion.

[Galations 2:20]

I read the article and it sounds like just because you are water baptized in the local church you are part of the body of Christ.   

 

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

 

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

 

Luke 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

 

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

 

You are right in saying the Holy Ghost does not baptize.  However, these verses indicate that John the Baptist baptized with water but Jesus baptizes believers into the Spirit. 

 

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”;another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

In the name of Jesus we are baptized with the Spirit into the body of Christ.

 

So I disagree when you say it is regarding water baptism in a local church.

 

Does that make sense?

I agree- Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward change in heart condition, only.  It does not "guarantee" or "buy" salvation.  Nor does sprinkling infants (but that is a whole other discussion.)

 

Salvation is a free gift for whosoever shall believe.  Water is not added, nor any other thing added to this equation.

 

Salvation plus anything is works.  It is not following a man, a church, a movement ........ 1 Cor 12-13 people were following other men, not God

 

Salvation is placing personal faith in Jesus Christ as the way to eternal life in Heaven.

[Invicta]

Please don't take this the wrong way - I am looking for information, not argument.

There are actually many places where the term 'body' is used in relation to local church.
Can you point to a passage that is specifically and unequivocally speaking of the body of Christ as ONLY all believers and not the local church?

Thanks,
Dave

 

Thanks Dave, but please can you reference some of those many places.

[DaveW]

Thanks Dave, but please can you reference some of those many places.

Ok.
Brief and superficial run down.

Rom 12 makes sense in a local setting, not so much in universal.

1 Cor 10:16 Lord's supper is not done universally - local indicative.

1 Cor 12 - less certain until you hit around vs 18 where it talks about setting members in the body - local indicative.

Eph 1:23 just says the church is His body - no indication either way.

Eph 4:12 indicates local - officers not given universally, but locally. Vs4 is unclear but could apply either way.

Col 1:18 probably leans universal but could apply local.

Col 3:15 context indicates local - you don't quarrel universally.


My point is that in my searching I have found nothing that is categorical about the body of Christ applying universally, but at least these which are leaning towards - and in some cases clearly indicating - the body to be a local church.

There are some passages which are unclear, but so far in what I have found, the tendency is towards the body being local churches, with no indication of the body being universal - at best, unclear.

I personally think it is a confusion of terms. Some people use "body" not in a biblical sense, but to differentiate between "local churches" and "all the saved".

[Left the Bldg]

At the moment of salvation...doesn't that place us in the body of Christ?

 

1 Cor 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

There is no mention of water here.

 

Don't we use the same analogy in Romans 12?  At the moment of salvation, we are grafted in? 

[DaveW]

Context - Vs 18 indicates local.

Then there is this:

25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. note

 26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

How do these verses apply universally?
Do you rejoice with believers in Tibet?
Can you have a schism with believers in Moscow?

This only makes sense locally, and indicates the context of the passage.

primarily local, not clearly universal.

[DaveW]

Sorry missed the Romans 12 bit - same applies as above - where do you teach?
Where do you minister?
These things happen locally, not universally.

As to water, my point was to the use of the term "body" only.
Sometimes it is better to deal with one issue at a time. ;)