United Church Of God

[Left the Bldg]

Unless dealing with someone totally untaught at first, or with no means to go to a church and be baptized, then it sounds like someone dealing with at least rebellious heart and probably not saved. If one believes on Christ unto salvation, there should be, at some point, a change in their heart and a desire to follow, at least in SOME aspect. If there is a deliberate desire to forsake the assembly and the command of baptism, that's a sign of possibly not being saved at all.

 

never understood people who, upon being saved, their initial act is to reject the things of God and rebel against His word. By their fruits we know them, eh?

 

Remember, Jesus said that His sheep FOLLOW Him-we don't always follow perfectly, and if you have ever kept sheep, you'll understand that, but we Do know Him and follow Him and His voice. When the sheep refuse to follow, maybe they're not of His flock after all.

I don't think it was an act of rebellion toward God not to want to go to church but out of hurt by people of the church and the hypocrisy that sometimes exists within its members.  And maybe laziness.  How can we truly measure someone by their fruits?  Galatians 5 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

I don't know any Christian who exhibits all of these characteristics at all times.  So how do we measure if someone truly has salvation? Romans 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  Isn't it that simple?  Baptism or church attendance...isn't that adding to the free gift of salvation?  Baptism and church attendance isn't one of the fruits of the spirit.  The reason I am saying all this is because I know people from several denominations and some who don't attend church at all believe Romans 9.  Doesn't that make them saved?

[Ukulelemike]

I don't think it was an act of rebellion toward God not to want to go to church but out of hurt by people of the church and the hypocrisy that sometimes exists within its members.  And maybe laziness.  How can we truly measure someone by their fruits?  Galatians 5 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

I don't know any Christian who exhibits all of these characteristics at all times.  So how do we measure if someone truly has salvation? Romans 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  Isn't it that simple?  Baptism or church attendance...isn't that adding to the free gift of salvation?  Baptism and church attendance isn't one of the fruits of the spirit.  The reason I am saying all this is because I know people from several denominations and some who don't attend church at all believe Romans 9.  Doesn't that make them saved?

Salvation by grace through faith is, indeed, the only way of salvation. However, those who are saved should exhibit some semblance of obedience.

 

Now, yes, when one has been hurt by a church and gets out for a while, as I have in my past, I don't see that as rebellion. I was assuming you were speaking of someone who NEVER attended or was baptized. Baptism is obedience, church attendance and membership is obedience-and we are often at different places of obedience. So I misunderstood what you meant and made, perhaps, a more sweeping statement than I ought to have. Laziness, however, I would have to attribute to some aspect of rebellion: my pleasure and leasure is more important than the word of God.

[Left the Bldg]

Salvation by grace through faith is, indeed, the only way of salvation. However, those who are saved should exhibit some semblance of obedience.

 

Now, yes, when one has been hurt by a church and gets out for a while, as I have in my past, I don't see that as rebellion. I was assuming you were speaking of someone who NEVER attended or was baptized. Baptism is obedience, church attendance and membership is obedience-and we are often at different places of obedience. So I misunderstood what you meant and made, perhaps, a more sweeping statement than I ought to have. Laziness, however, I would have to attribute to some aspect of rebellion: my pleasure and leasure is more important than the word of God.

They were baptized in the Lutheran and Methodist church which I believe does infant baptism so they didn't feel the need to get baptized the Biblical way and since they didn't attend church...they didn't grow to learn Biblical truth but they still believed.  It's hard to give anyone a clear pic of the people I am referring to without knowing them, I guess.

[Ukulelemike]

They were baptized in the Lutheran and Methodist church which I believe does infant baptism so they didn't feel the need to get baptized the Biblical way and since they didn't attend church...they didn't grow to learn Biblical truth but they still believed.  It's hard to give anyone a clear pic of the people I am referring to without knowing them, I guess.

Sounds like you have your work cut out for you-lol.   I do understand the type, believe me. I suspect most of us know this type of people

[Invicta]

As stated previously, I disagree.  The Spirit prompts us to get baptized which also allows us into membership with a NTC.

 

Where in the bible do the scriptures teach that a singular person is a church and or a part of the Body of Christ by themselves?

 

Where in the bible?  The thief on the cross, I suppose.

[Invicta]

To get back to the original post.  I know someone who is a member of the Worldwide Church of God.  I had not seen him for some months but turned up at our seniors lunch on Tuesday.  He said the WWCOG is the original Armstrongite, but they have drompped many of his teachings, including British Israelite teaching but they still meet on Saturday.  When Amstrong died, it split and there are many splinter groups.  One of these is the "Continuing Church of God" and I get adverts from them at the bottom of the page when I post on this thread.  Google again?

[Left the Bldg]

Sounds like you have your work cut out for you-lol.   I do understand the type, believe me. I suspect most of us know this type of people

Well, unfortunately, my work is done...they passed away.  They were my parents.  :-(  They told me they believed in Jesus so I believe what they told me and have to trust God that he knew their hearts. 

[Left the Bldg]

Where in the bible?  The thief on the cross, I suppose.

I always use this one when someone says you have to be baptized.  It is a command but not a condition of salvation.

[JerryNumbers]

If one accepts Christ as savior and believes but does not go to church or get baptized.  What does that mean?

 

IF one truly accept Christ as Savior they're forever saved.

 

The 1st step of righteousness a person can do after being saved is get baptized, until them they are not truly following Christ.

 

And I have a feeling that if a person is truly saved they will want to be baptized & attend a New Testament Church.

 

If a person says they've been saved, & they refuses to be baptized, & attend church services it would seem there's a problem.

 

The Bible says by their fruit we shall know them.

 

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

I would not say they are not saved, yet i might say by their fruit they are not showing they've been saved. I say that because I cannot read their heart, & only our Lord can do that.

[DaveW]

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Can someone be saved and yet not love the Lord?

I believe yes, but if someone is saved they will want to be obedient to Him.
That doesn't mean that they always succeed in it, but there should be some level of desire for it.

[JerryNumbers]

I don't think it was an act of rebellion toward God not to want to go to church but out of hurt by people of the church and the hypocrisy that sometimes exists within its members.  And maybe laziness.  How can we truly measure someone by their fruits?  Galatians 5 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

I don't know any Christian who exhibits all of these characteristics at all times.  So how do we measure if someone truly has salvation? Romans 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  Isn't it that simple?  Baptism or church attendance...isn't that adding to the free gift of salvation?  Baptism and church attendance isn't one of the fruits of the spirit.  The reason I am saying all this is because I know people from several denominations and some who don't attend church at all believe Romans 9.  Doesn't that make them saved?

 

I can't make a comment about those I do no know, & do not know anything about. Yet I would like to make a comment, maybe it will help you, give you some thought to think on & or help you perhaps help someone else sometime down the road of life.

 

There's no doubt from time to time a church member will get hurt, & maybe badly hurt for some reason or another. Or maybe even the church might do something that's very wrong. One thing we should not do is completely stop attending church services. If its so bad we can't attend that church we should find another one staying close to our Savior & fellow shipping with brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

Yet, there's another thought to keep in mind, love, charity.

 

1Co 13:1 ¶ Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1Co 13:4 ¶ Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

Love overcomes all things.

 

Now, another thought, our 'Dear Savior' had a very bad experience, worse than any we may have.

 

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 

Think about how that would hurt ones feelings, its a very bad experience. Plus, look at this.

 

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

While we were still sinner, enemies both to God & the Savior, God commendeth His love toward us by giving Christ, & Christ proved His love for us by dying on the cross to pay our sin debt.

 

How do we prove our Christian love? Forgiving, & who can hurt us the worse, those we loved, our brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

We should be quick to forgive those who hurt us & never carry a grudge & having an unforgiving heart.

 

And surely if God & our Savior were forgiving to us, we can be forgiving to those who hurt us.

 

 

 

[swathdiver]

If one accepts Christ as savior and believes but does not go to church or get baptized.  What does that mean?

 

It means they are still rebellious if they know they're supposed to get baptized and become a member of a New Testament Church and don't.  

 

Hebrews 6:4-6:

 

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

 

The Lord saved me on my back porch.  I didn't know any Christians, nobody witnessed to me person to person and didn't read a bible tract.  After salvation I instinctively knew (Holy Spirit) that I had to start attending church and get baptized.  Also bought a bible because I knew that it would be kind of important to know what God's Word says, to learn what He expects from us.  I was surrendered and ready to change and do the right thing, to turn from my worldly, devilish ways, to serve our living God.

 

Hebrews 6 teaches us two things.  First, that once saved, always saved.  Second, that if we profess Christ and then go live like the devil we weren't saved to begin with.  That doesn't mean we don't sin but we sure don't fall away either.  It's one thing to believe in Jesus, most do.  Quite another to believe ON Jesus Christ and accept him as Lord and Savior.  

 

 

Where in the bible?  The thief on the cross, I suppose.

 

No, that example doesn't teach that.  It does teach that a believer goes to heaven when they die.  Was the thief a church or part of the Body of Christ?  No, he obviously didn't have time for that but he does live today with Christ.

[Ukulelemike]

Well, unfortunately, my work is done...they passed away.  They were my parents.  :-(  They told me they believed in Jesus so I believe what they told me and have to trust God that he knew their hearts. 

I'm sorry for your loss-family can be the most difficult people to witness to, especially parents, because they know you at your worst, and sometimes have a hard time seeing past that once saved, or matured. But the bottom line, of course, is that if they received Christ by faith, then they are saved, whatever things they may have brought into the equation later.

 My own parents, whom I credit for my enduring faith, themselves have left church many years back out of a hurt, as well as health, though I suspect they use that as an excuse more than anything, (not like anyone is going to ask them to run laps in service, right?). But I have seen over time how my father's beliefs have grown odd as he has been out, whereas they were much more solid while he was active-he has become a sort-of evolution by creation type. But I can't discuss it because his head begins to hurt and that's that. So I know just where you are.

 

One of my sisters is IFB, one is a skeptic, one is nothing, and my brother is quite pentecostal, along with his family. So we're all over the board in my family, due, I suppose, to my parents never really discerning true churches from false, and kind of taking us all over the place as kids-we always went, but it was kind of wherever was handy. Only one Baptist that I recall, maybe two, but, due to the military, we moved around a lot.

[Invicta]

It means they are still rebellious if they know they're supposed to get baptized and become a member of a New Testament Church and don't.  

 

Hebrews 6:4-6:

 

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

 

The Lord saved me on my back porch.  I didn't know any Christians, nobody witnessed to me person to person and didn't read a bible tract.  After salvation I instinctively knew (Holy Spirit) that I had to start attending church and get baptized.  Also bought a bible because I knew that it would be kind of important to know what God's Word says, to learn what He expects from us.  I was surrendered and ready to change and do the right thing, to turn from my worldly, devilish ways, to serve our living God.

 

Hebrews 6 teaches us two things.  First, that once saved, always saved.  Second, that if we profess Christ and then go live like the devil we weren't saved to begin with.  That doesn't mean we don't sin but we sure don't fall away either.  It's one thing to believe in Jesus, most do.  Quite another to believe ON Jesus Christ and accept him as Lord and Savior.  

 

 

 

No, that example doesn't teach that.  It does teach that a believer goes to heaven when they die.  Was the thief a church or part of the Body of Christ?  No, he obviously didn't have time for that but he does live today with Christ.

 

If he was saved, and he must have been, to go to heaven, then he must have been part of the chiurch and the body of Christ.

[John81]

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Can someone be saved and yet not love the Lord?

I believe yes, but if someone is saved they will want to be obedient to Him.
That doesn't mean that they always succeed in it, but there should be some level of desire for it.

Which is one of the reason we are commanded to make disciples. For many new believers, no one is discipling them, some don't even know enough to know about baptism. Some believers sit in watered down churches for years, not knowing any better.