Running Into Some Pelegians And Holiness/pentecostal Types

[Salyan]

What do they say about 1 John 1, re believers being liers if they say they have no sin?

[Dr James Ach]

What do they say about 1 John 1, re believers being liers if they say they have no sin?

They don't contend that there is no sin, just that we weren't born with it ("original sin").

[2T3:16]

They don't contend that there is no sin, just that we weren't born with it ("original sin").

Yes, there has been an overemphasis of 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. ... In my discussions with them. they think we can live sinless as the pentecostal/holiness do (so you will find pentecostal/holiness types intersecting with the pelagian theology) Also, when I posted yesterday:

"born sinners: Isaiah 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb."

 

I got the response "...come on. You really get that Adam sinned and now all people have a sinful nature from this verse?"

 

So I posted "Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

so there was some discussion and a third person came in and said "Did you see that guy on one of the boards (forget who it was) that was SO zealous to deny man's spiritual depravity that he actually interpreted "in sin was I conceived" to mean that David's mom was a whore?, Wow"

 

of course this was an indirect reference to our discussion, thankfully ... the discussion didn't get out of hand

 

I posted "Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

 

etc. as Brother James said ... they don't believe the doctrine of original sin. You could go to the "Pelagian Theology"  group on facebook and see for yourself, the last post on that thread was an hour ago.

[Dr James Ach]

Yes, there has been an overemphasis of 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. ... In my discussions with them. they think we can live sinless as the pentecostal/holiness do (so you will find pentecostal/holiness types intersecting with the pelagian theology) Also, when I posted yesterday:

"born sinners: Isaiah 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb."

 

I got the response "...come on. You really get that Adam sinned and now all people have a sinful nature from this verse?"

 

So I posted "Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

so there was some discussion and a third person came in and said "Did you see that guy on one of the boards (forget who it was) that was SO zealous to deny man's spiritual depravity that he actually interpreted "in sin was I conceived" to mean that David's mom was a whore?, Wow"

 

of course this was an indirect reference to our discussion, thankfully ... the discussion didn't get out of hand

 

I posted "Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

 

etc. as Brother James said ... they don't believe the doctrine of original sin. You could go to the "Pelagian Theology"  group on facebook and see for yourself, the last post on that thread was an hour ago.

Romans 5:14 shows the death was the result of Adam, and even applied to those who did not sin in the same way that Adam did, so it isn't the specific sins that we now commit that cause death, but the nature of its inheritance after Adam introduced it.

[JerryNumbers]

They don't contend that there is no sin, just that we weren't born with it ("original sin").

 

Isn't that what the RCC & the coC, teaches. That each person falls on their own.

 

I say that about the churches of Christ because I believe I've had several of them state the sin of Adam & Eve had no effect on anyone but Adam & Eve.

[Donillo]

Nazarene church teaches works salvation.  If you don't maintain fellowship with God, you can lose your salvation and have to earn it back.  

 

I imagine it can be exhausting for Christ and the hapless nazarene, Jesus on the cross many times a day and them being born again many times a day.

Being a Nazarene and saved in a Free Methodist Church, (but attending an IFB at the present time), my opinion is that the Nazarene Church does not teach works salvation.  There are many warnings in Scripture against willful sin once a person is saved.  Basically, the warnings are that the errant person will not inherit the kingdom of God.  One can have been saved and be and then go out and be an adulterer, fornicator, fearful, homo, and all the other sinful acts that the Bible says the kingdom of God is not for them.  I don't understand how people can so easily ignore all the warnings!  

[Left the Bldg]

Being a Nazarene and saved in a Free Methodist Church, (but attending an IFB at the present time), my opinion is that the Nazarene Church does not teach works salvation.  There are many warnings in Scripture against willful sin once a person is saved.  Basically, the warnings are that the errant person will not inherit the kingdom of God.  One can have been saved and be and then go out and be an adulterer, fornicator, fearful, homo, and all the other sinful acts that the Bible says the kingdom of God is not for them.  I don't understand how people can so easily ignore all the warnings!  

All believers commit deliberate sins.  I think what you are referring to is apostasy.

[Left the Bldg]

Being a Nazarene and saved in a Free Methodist Church, (but attending an IFB at the present time), my opinion is that the Nazarene Church does not teach works salvation.  There are many warnings in Scripture against willful sin once a person is saved.  Basically, the warnings are that the errant person will not inherit the kingdom of God.  One can have been saved and be and then go out and be an adulterer, fornicator, fearful, homo, and all the other sinful acts that the Bible says the kingdom of God is not for them.  I don't understand how people can so easily ignore all the warnings!  

PS.  The scripture you refer to is speaking of "unbelievers." 

 

 1 Cor:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[Donillo]

PS.  The scripture you refer to is speaking of "unbelievers."   Now that just doesn't make any sense.  What you are implying then is a believer who actually does those things is exempt and still can inherit the kingdom because s/he is 'saved'.  How can that be??  A person can get saved (accept Christ, give his heart to Jesus, become a believer, etc...) then go back to or continue in sin - apostatize, and be lost and lose the hope of entering the pearly gates, unless of course s/he repents.  Nowhere in scripture does it support the popular notion of when a person dies and is asked why they should be let into heaven, it is because I believed in Jesus even though the person lived a sinful idolatrous life.

 

 1 Cor:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[Left the Bldg]

 

I didn't say that.   Romans 6:12 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

There is a difference between falling away and apostasy.

[Left the Bldg]

 

Again...the scripture is referring to unbelievers.  Verse 11 states "and such were some of you" (unbelievers)...now that they are believers...they are washed, sanctified and justified.

[Left the Bldg]

 

When "Christians" die and we stand before God...it will be to give an account of our lives in service to Christ.  It won't be about salvation.

[Donillo]

I didn't say that.   Romans 6:12 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

There is a difference between falling away and apostasy.

Our IFB pastor preached that he could go out and rob a bank, commit murder and will still go to heaven.  

[Left the Bldg]

Our IFB pastor preached that he could go out and rob a bank, commit murder and will still go to heaven.  

I would hope he preached that to drive home the point that you cannot lose salvation and not actually be teaching that a Christian should go out and do those things.  King David committed murder and adultery but did not lose his salvation but he did pay a heavy price for his actions.  There are consequences to our actions.  However, loss of salvation is not one of the consequences.

[Donillo]

I understand that it would be a very stressful life for one to fear losing salvation and end up in hell.  There is a fearful scripture in Hebrews 10:26: if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins except a fearful looking for of judgement that will consume the adversaries.  The fearful looking is dreadful.  One can be so filled with fear that it would be impossible to have any faith after committing a sin.  All this is in the flesh and we are not to depend on our flesh for anything.  But to pull oneself out of that miry flesh is difficult.  If 'falling away' and 'apostasy' are different in that with one the fallen away one is still saved and with the other the apostate has lost salvation - that is how the Nazarenes believe.