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2T3:16

Running Into Some Pelegians And Holiness/pentecostal Types

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Some of these people really know my bible. They are giving me a run for my money on facebook:

We are discussing:

original sin

meaning of repentance

living a sinless life

(and eternal security)

 

I am also running into those that argue there is more than one gospel

 

These people certainly help keep me humble.

 

Anybody know good solid resources?

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Looking at Wayne's post where he references 1 John 3 and Romans 3, arguing that people sin under the Law, but that they which are born of God don't sin.

While the two verses state that, Scripture reveals that Paul was saved and found himself doing evil though he did not want to (Rom 7:18)

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Many would argue that Paul is speaking of his life prior to Salvation in the verse above.  I disagree.  Paul said, "That I do" (present tense)  He did not say "That I did."

The Apostle John also stated that sinning is possible after Salvation.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is clear that when one rightly divides the Word of Truth, one will see that because of our flesh nature, we are tempted to, and do, sin.



 

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Some of these people really know my bible. They are giving me a run for my money on facebook:

We are discussing:

original sin

meaning of repentance

living a sinless life

(and eternal security)

 

I am also running into those that argue there is more than one gospel

 

These people certainly help keep me humble.

 

Anybody know good solid resources?

There is more than one gospel in scripture, but there is only one for today. i.e. the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

Also, remember that there is a difference between Total Depravity and Total Inability. True Calvinists teach the latter though they may call it the former.

 

The same goes for Perseverance of the Saints. It is not the same as the Preservation of the Saints which we believe. Calvinism teaches the former.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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There is more than one gospel in scripture, but there is only one for today. i.e. the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

Also, remember that there is a difference between Total Depravity and Total Inability. True Calvinists teach the latter though they may call it the former.

 

The same goes for Perseverance of the Saints. It is not the same as the Preservation of the Saints which we believe. Calvinism teaches the former.

Just how many gospels do you see in Scripture?

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Also, remember that there is a difference between Total Depravity and Total Inability. True Calvinists teach the latter though they may call it the former.

 

This is a correct and important distinction. Calvinists (at least the ones I've dealt with) often try to argue a "total inability" interpretation from Romans 3:10-12. However, this bends and stretches the text way past the breaking point. That passage speaks only of what people do and not what they are able to do. A Calvinist sees original sin as removing everyone's ability to choose right, largely based on the writings of Augustine. They need this interpretation to support their version of unconditional election/double-predestination and limited atonement (sometimes argued in reverse though).

 

Pelagians on the other hand stress that original sin stayed with Adam and that all people are born sinless. This is somewhat of an oversimplification but is the main thrust of their argument for absolute free will. They believe that every individual has the ability to remain sinless and work their way to heaven, but most fail.

 

Thus, what you have is two lines of thought in complete overreaction to the other. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

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Pelagians on the other hand stress that original sin stayed with Adam and that all people are born sinless. This is somewhat of an oversimplification but is the main thrust of their argument for absolute free will. They believe that every individual has the ability to remain sinless and work their way to heaven, but most fail.

 

 

Ask them to name one person outside of Jesus Christ that remained sinless. If they can't then their whole argument is moot.

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Just how many gospels do you see in Scripture?

Let's see, there's:

 

the gospel of the kingdom

 

the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ aka gospel of grace

 

the everlasting gospel

 

the gospel preached before to Abraham concerning his seed

 

Paul's gospel which he calls "my gospel"

 

 

Remember, the word "gospel" simply means "good news". We preach the gospel of grace today. Paul's gospel was this but also included the revelation of the body of Christ i.e. Jews and Gentiles in the same body. So we preach that too. At least, we should preach that.

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Let's see, there's:

 

the gospel of the kingdom

 

the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ aka gospel of grace

 

the everlasting gospel

 

the gospel preached before to Abraham concerning his seed

 

Paul's gospel which he calls "my gospel"

 

 

Remember, the word "gospel" simply means "good news". We preach the gospel of grace today. Paul's gospel was this but also included the revelation of the body of Christ i.e. Jews and Gentiles in the same body. So we preach that too. At least, we should preach that.

Generally, when the Gospel is being discussed among Christians it means the message of salvation. When Christians spread the Gospel, they are spreading the message of salvation.

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Generally, when the Gospel is being discussed among Christians it means the message of salvation. When Christians spread the Gospel, they are spreading the message of salvation.

I agree 100%. But you still have to differentiate in scripture. Not doing this has led some folks to preach a false gospel or add to the gospel that we preach today, Acts 2:38 being the prime example. The gospel of the kingdom is not the gospel we preach today. That was a gospel being offered to the Jews at Christ's first coming which they rejected.

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I must have missed it, but what is a peligian? Never heard of that before. For that matter, I thought I understood charismatics, is holiness a different denomination or off shoot of charismatics?

A pelican is a large bird with a big beak that has an expandable bladder attached to the underside of the beak.

;)

Glad I could be of some help. :D

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Ask them to name one person outside of Jesus Christ that remained sinless. If they can't then their whole argument is moot.

 

If you ask the Catholics that question they would say at least these two, Mary the mother of Jesus & Job.

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I must have missed it, but what is a peligian? Never heard of that before. For that matter, I thought I understood charismatics, is holiness a different denomination or off shoot of charismatics?

 

I'm 66 going on 67 & I did not hear about it till a few months back. On the internet I believe we hear about everything, & even something that are not! 

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I must have missed it, but what is a peligian? Never heard of that before. For that matter, I thought I understood charismatics, is holiness a different denomination or off shoot of charismatics?

 

Pelagius was a monk who lived in the late 4th-early 5th century that opposed the idea of predestination and argued vehemently with its main proponent (Augustine). He taught the absolute free will of man and that people could actually live a perfect and sinless life and get to heaven without Jesus. Pelagians are those who who follow his line of thought and argue for absolute free will. Arminianism (of which Methodism is a strand) is an expression of this kind of theology.

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Pelagius was a monk who lived in the late 4th-early 5th century that opposed the idea of predestination and argued vehemently with its main proponent (Augustine). He taught the absolute free will of man and that people could actually live a perfect and sinless life and get to heaven without Jesus. Pelagians are those who who follow his line of thought and argue for absolute free will. Arminianism (of which Methodism is a strand) is an expression of this kind of theology.

Does this also include the Nazarenes? Years ago somebody put my name on a Nazarene magazine list so I received their magazine for a year. Each issue had articles about living in holy perfection.

 

We are called to pursue holiness, as Scripture says, be ye holy, for I am holy, but this is a lifetime pursuit of learning to continually and more and more surrender fully to Christ, walking in the Spirit, not the flesh. Holiness is a target we are to aim for even though we know we will never attain perfect holiness in this life.

 

The idea we can walk in perfect holiness in this life isn't biblical.

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Does this also include the Nazarenes? Years ago somebody put my name on a Nazarene magazine list so I received their magazine for a year. Each issue had articles about living in holy perfection.

 

We are called to pursue holiness, as Scripture says, be ye holy, for I am holy, but this is a lifetime pursuit of learning to continually and more and more surrender fully to Christ, walking in the Spirit, not the flesh. Holiness is a target we are to aim for even though we know we will never attain perfect holiness in this life.

 

The idea we can walk in perfect holiness in this life isn't biblical.

 

I don't know a ton about the Nazarenes, but what I do recall is that they're some odd mixture of Methodism and Pentacostalism. It's definitely part of the holiness movement but accepts a modified concept of original and personal sin. I just did a quick scan of their articles of faith and it really seems to be a hodge podge of several strands of theology. It makes their overall belief structure a little confusing.  I think they definitely have a distinct bent toward Arminianism and Methodism, so I guess that puts them somewhere the semi-Pelagian spectrum.

Edited by TheSword

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I don't know a ton about the Nazarenes, but what I do recall is that they're some odd mixture of Methodism and Pentacostalism. It's definitely part of the holiness movement but accepts a modified concept of original and personal sin. I just did a quick scan of their articles of faith and it really seems to be a hodge podge of several strands of theology. It makes their overall belief structure a little confusing.  I think they definitely have a distinct bent toward Arminianism and Methodism, so I guess that puts them somewhere the semi-Pelagian spectrum.

Thank you. I've only known a few Nazarenes and most of them was when I was a child. The few adults I knew who were Nazarenes seemed a bit odd but looking back I don't recall why I thought that.

 

I do know that Nazarene magazine I received for about a year was always pushing perfect holiness. That was 20 some years ago so I don't remember any details.

 

I know there are many strains of Methodists. I know some who seem more Pentacostal, some (very few these days from what I can tell) who lean more towards the Baptists, and those who seem to be worldly Christians, among those are the ones who think they are trying to live right for God but have no idea of biblical salvation.

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Looking at Wayne's post where he references 1 John 3 and Romans 3, arguing that people sin under the Law, but that they which are born of God don't sin.

While the two verses state that, Scripture reveals that Paul was saved and found himself doing evil though he did not want to (Rom 7:18)

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Many would argue that Paul is speaking of his life prior to Salvation in the verse above.  I disagree.  Paul said, "That I do" (present tense)  He did not say "That I did."

The Apostle John also stated that sinning is possible after Salvation.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

It is clear that when one rightly divides the Word of Truth, one will see that because of our flesh nature, we are tempted to, and do, sin.


 

A lost person only has one nature; the "sin nature", "the flesh", the "old man". But a child of God has two(2) natures; the sin nature and the new nature or "new man". The old nature can and still does sin, but the "new nature", which is born of the Spirit, cannot.  The problem is, most of the time, we don't walk in the Spirit. So, yes, you and I can and do sin but that new nature, which also lives inside those who are born of the Spirit, cannot sin.

Edited by heartstrings

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Nazarene church teaches works salvation.  If you don't maintain fellowship with God, you can lose your salvation and have to earn it back.  

 

I imagine it can be exhausting for Christ and the hapless nazarene, Jesus on the cross many times a day and them being born again many times a day.

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