Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

[Steve Schwenke]

maybe you would want to do an exhaustive study on the word "contradiction." 

 

How does someone have the belief "the KJV is the literal Word of God for english speaking people" and then come up with the thought, "wine is not wine, it is juice!" 

 

No wonder most the lost world thinks Christians are a bunch of hypocritical knuckleheads.  We spend hours and hours trying to justify wine being juice and then try to tell other "Christians" they are using the wrong Bible if they are not using the KJV because it's perfect.

Goodness!  Don't have a conniption fit over this!

Does every word in our KJV Bible mean the same exact thing, every single time it is used?

Absolutely not.

 

Example:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Here "meat" applies to fruits and vegetables.

 

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Here "meat" refers to animal meat as well as the herbs and fruits.

 

Genesis 27:4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

Here "meat" is an obvious reference to animal meat.

 

Leviticus 2:1 And when any will offer a meat offering unto the LORD, his offering shall be of fine flour; and he shall pour oil upon it, and put frankincense thereon:

Here "meat" is a reference to FLOUR - most commentaries interpret this as "meal."

 

Got it?

Now, why would not allow the same thing for the generic word "wine?"  Have you done any type of study on the word?  I have.  Took me the better part of two years off and on to go through every single reference for "wine" and all the derivatives for the word.  I found 8 different uses for the word.  I can tell you, it does not ALWAYS refer to alcoholic wine, and sometimes it does.  Sometimes the context is not clear as to whether or not it was alcoholic or not. 

This verse demonstrates clearly that "wine" often times IS a reference to freshly squeezed juice:

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

"In the CLUSTER?"  In other words, the Lord calls it "wine" when it is still a GRAPE, and the idea is that those grapes will be harvested, and pressed into someone's cup to drink immediately. 

 

Another example:

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Obviously, this passage is not speaking of any literal beverage, but is figurative in language.  There are many similar passages to this, that are prophetic and figurative.

 

Example:

1 Samuel 25:18 Then Abigail made haste, and took two hundred loaves, and two bottles of wine, and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched corn, and an hundred clusters of raisins, and two hundred cakes of figs, and laid them on asses.

OK - so Abigail brings out enough food to feed David's small rebel army of 600 men, but only brings out two bottles of wine?  Did she bring wine glasses as well?

No, this was the preserved must, (similar to our concentrate), that they could dilute.  It would have been enough to go with the meal for all of David's men.   It was NOT alcoholic.

 

Example:

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

This is a clear reference to alcoholic wine, since it is mentioned together with "strong drink."

 

Now, one thing we can say about John 2, and our Lord turning water into "wine" is that it is NOT CLEAR from the passage.  If it were clear, then we would not be debating it so frequently. 

Kindofblue says that he makes alcoholic beverages, and that is a natural process.  But it is a DECAYING process, unless you believe in evolution ("everything gets better with time" right?)  That being the case, I can not imagine that our Lord would make something that was not perfect.  But that is just my opinion.

In the case of John 2, the relevant passages are Prov. 20:1, Prov. 23:29-35, and Hab. 2:15.  If Jesus Christ made alcohol, then He is in direct violation of 3 different passages of OT Scripture. 

 

I don't see that happening.

 

In Christ,

[Steve Schwenke]

  Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828)

ARTFL > Webster's Dictionary > Searching for wine:

Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:

 

WINE, n. [Gr.]

 

1. The fermented juice of grapes; as the wine of the Madeira grape; the wine of Burgundy or Oporto.

 

2. The juice of certain fruits, prepared with sugar, spirits, &c.; as currant wine; gooseberry wine.

 

3. Intoxication.

 

  Noah awoke from his wine. Genesis 9.

 

4. Drinking.

 

  They that tarry long at the wine. Proverbs 23.

 

Corn and wine, in Scripture, are put for all kinds of necessaries for subsistence. Psalm.

 

Bread and wine, in the Lords supper, are symbols of the body and blood of Christ.  

 

1 Timothy 3  

² A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

³ Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

⁸ Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

 

Pastors shouldn't drink wine and deacons shouldn't drink much wine...are we talking grape juice here?  Why can't Pastors drink grape juice and why can deacons only drink a little grape juice?  Or is verse 3 fermented and then verse 8 unfermented? 

 

This is why it seems like acrobatics. 

Yes, many times, the OT refers to wine as part of their harvest:

Deuteronomy 11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

Silly old KJV!  People don't gather in WINE!  They gather in GRAPES! 

But can you see how the KJV has a broad definition for "wine" that includes many different things?

The word "wine" comes from the word "vine" and can refer to any thing that comes from the vine, in any of its stages: on the vine, harvested off the vine, pressed into fresh juice, or fermented wine. 

 

No verbal gymnastics, just study.

 

In Christ,

[The Glory Land]

If Christ made alcohol for a bunch of people that had already "well drunk," then He has no right preventing drunkards from entering the Kingdom of Heaven.  Yet, His Word tells us drunkards will not be in Heaven.

Sorry TGL, but Christ did not make alcohol.

 

 

Then why did the drunkards say, you saved the best for last, does the bible say they were drunk?

[Ukulelemike]

Fermentation occurs naturally.  Yeast, which is a substance in nature, devours sugar, and produces alcohol.  It is a completely natural process.  Making beer or wine is just controlling that process and keeping bacteria and other foreign substances out so the fermentation is pure.  I am a beer maker, so I know how to control the process well.  It is completely natural.  Making beer and wine is merely controlling the natural process.  It begins as soon as a sugary liquid comes into contact with yeast, which is naturally in the air, so it begins immediately.  Wine makers and beer makers merely accelerate the natural process by adding yeast and keeping it in a sterile environment so it is pure.  It is not corrupted at all.  In fact, it produces very delicious beverages when done well.  There are terrible tasting beer and wine out there, but that is usually the inferior mass marketed garbage, and not the fine wines and craft beers that are wonderful.  :-)  

 

Jesus did not serve wine to drunk people.  A wedding feast in that day occurred over a long period of time.  The best wine is served first.  Once people have tasted the best, the inferior was served.  The same is often done today at social events.  You experience the most flavor the first couple bites of food or drinks of wine.  After that, your taste buds have grown accustomed to the flavor, and the flavor is not a vivid.  That is why people serve the best first.

Controlling the process to make wine  makes the difference in the end product between vinegar and wine-vinegar happens naturally, while wine occurs when controlled by man.

 As for the best/worse, yes, even with non-intoxicating things, the taste buds will be influenced, if you will, by that which comes first, and that includes juice.

[swathdiver]

 

No verbal gymnastics, just study.

 

 

[The Glory Land]

Um, what table are you talking about?  If you are talking about in Heaven, there won't be intoxicating beverage there, because, for starters yeast (leaven) is a picture of sin and there is no sin in Heaven...Secondly, God said it's not wise, therefore He wouldn't provide it.  

 

At other tables here on earth, I will refuse it.  If I'm even at a table where it's served.  Have been (unwillingly or unknowingly) and have done.  

 

Here on Earth, what is the big deal about having a cup of Wine, by not are you a better Christian? Don't take your cold Medicine, it may have more alcohol than the Wine.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Then why did the drunkards say, you saved the best for last, does the bible say they were drunk?

Where does the text say drunkards said that? 

Alcohol deadens taste buds.  Had the governor been drunk (as ye suppose) he would not have been able to distinguish the quality of the wine.  (this, by the way, proves that it could not have been an alcoholic wine that was provided at the wedding feast.  The governor had the ability to distinguish the taste between good and bad)

And that which Jesus served was not alcoholic either.

It is clear, when studying John 2:1-11, that the people of Jesus' day did not rate their wine "good" or "best" based on alcoholic content, but rather on flavor... on taste.

[Steve Schwenke]

Here on Earth, what is the big deal about having a cup of Wine, by not are you a better Christian? Don't take your cold Medicine, it may have more alcohol than the Wine.

I have always thought that this is what the Bible was referring to when it says "take A LITTLE wine for thy stomach's sake..."

Using A LITTLE for medicinal purposes is far different than drinking "moderately" or "socially."

 

Every study that I have read that drinking alcoholic wine moderately does NOT help a person's health - they would have to drink a whole bottle of wine to get any health benefits, and by then the alcoholic part of the wine would do more than counter-balance any medicinal value.  These same studies say quite clearly that GRAPE JUICE is very good for your heart health, but grape WINE is NOT. 

BUT

Mouthwash has alcohol in it, some cold medicines (like Nyquil) have alcohol in them (although now you can get the non-alcoholic versions of these), and many alternative medicines are made of herbal tinctures, which is made by soaking an herb in an alcohol solution.  Of course, the herbal tinctures are to be taken by the DROP, not by the bottle (like maybe, 10 drops diluted in 2-3 oz. of juice).  So, when the Bible says "a LITTLE," it really means "a little."

 

In Christ,

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Concerning 1 Timothy 5:23, I read an article years ago where it was said that that wine proscribed was not alcoholic.  It was something called "adumen" (sp?) and was a paste, if I remember correctly, that one took orally.

[Alimantado]

Why Rob are you applying modern definitions to a word that remained essentially unchanged until about sixty years ago?  How can you rightly divide the Scriptures if you don't know what the words mean and cannot see the contexts?

 

Here's some reading material:

 

Page 20 here:

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/10dectbc.pdf

 

Page 5 on this one (you might like the front page article too):

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/11febtbc.pdf

 

Finally, Page 3 here:

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/96martbc.pdf

 

Hi SD. I'm intrigued by what you've said about the English word 'wine' formerly meaning both fermented and unfermented drink. Can you point me in the direction of more info about that? I've read those three links you've given and only one of them (well two are sort of the same article) mentions this etymology but it doesn't give any sources. You also mentioned a 19th century American dictionary, but I'm not sure that's the place to go to find out how English people were using the word in the 17th. Are there any other references you know of, before I go away and start looking?

[Steve Schwenke]

Hi SD. I'm intrigued by what you've said about the English word 'wine' formerly meaning both fermented and unfermented drink. Can you point me in the direction of more info about that? I've read those three links you've given and only one of them (well two are sort of the same article) mentions this etymology but it doesn't give any sources. You also mentioned a 19th century American dictionary, but I'm not sure that's the place to go to find out how English people were using the word in the 17th. Are there any other references you know of, before I go away and start looking?

Well, you could simply do a word study of "wine" in the KJV Bible!

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If any are interested, I have a 356 page MS Word document format of the book by Leighton G. Campbell, "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence"

[no name joe]

Many Christians enjoy wine or other alcoholic drinks.  Many choose to abstain.  This is one of those areas where there are good reasons not to partake, but it is not sinful.  We are not talking about drinking to excess and abusing alcohol which is clearly sinful.  

 

This is simply an issue that some believe it is not wise.  Others believe it is wrong.  Others believe there is nothing wrong with it.

 

This is not an issue to divide over.  It is not an issue to cause disunity. If one believer, such as myself, enjoys a drink in the privacy of my home or with some friends, it has no impact on anyone.  Just like a choice of someone else to abstain does not have any impact on me.  

This is a trivial issue, to me.  One in which each believer should follow his or her own conscience.  

 

The principals that are clear in the Bible are:

1) Do not get drunk.  Drinking to excess is foolish and will lead to harmful consequences.

2) Do not cause someone to stumble.  So I will not offer a beer to someone I know to be an alcoholic.  That would not be right.  I would not offer wine to someone I know does not drink.  I would abstain while I was round them out of respect for their beliefs.  However, that does not mean I should abstain altogether.  The street goes two way.  I expect others to respect my beliefs and decision on the issue as well. 

[LindaR]

Here's a great article by the late Dr. Bruce Lackey (from the Way of LIfe website):

 

DID JESUS MAKE ALCOHOLIC WINE?

 

Republished August 23, 2005 (first published via the FBIS January 22, 1998) (Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -

The following article is by the late Bruce Lackey:

SOME INTRODUCTORY BIBLE FACTS ABOUT WINE:

1. The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word “wine” can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: Deuteronomy 11:14; 2 Chronicles 31:5; Nehemiah 13:15; Proverbs 3:10; Isaiah 16:10; 65:8; 1 Timothy 5:23.

2. The context will always show when “wine” refers to alcoholic beverages. In such cases, God discusses the bad effects of it and warns against it. An example would be Genesis 9, Noah’s experience after the Flood. Verse 21, “and he drank of the wine, and was drunken,” clearly refers to alcoholic beverage. Proverbs 20:1 speaks of the same thing when it warns us, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” Alcoholic wine is deceptive; but how? In the very way that people are advocating today, by saying that drinking a little bit will not hurt. Everyone admits that drinking too much is bad; even the liquor companies tell us not to drive and drink, but they insist that a small amount is all right. However, that is the very thing that is deceptive. Who knows how little to drink? Experts tell us that each person is different. It takes an ounce to affect one, while more is necessary for another. The same person will react to alcohol differently, depending on the amount of food he has had, among other things. So, the idea that “a little bit won’t hurt” is deceptive, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise!

Proverbs 23:30-31 refers to alcoholic wine, because it tells us in the previous verse that those who drink it have woe, sorrow, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause, and redness of eyes. What a graphic description of those who “tarry long” at alcoholism. Verses 32-35 continue the same description; context always makes it clear when alcohol is meant.

 

Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Hi SD. I'm intrigued by what you've said about the English word 'wine' formerly meaning both fermented and unfermented drink. Can you point me in the direction of more info about that? I've read those three links you've given and only one of them (well two are sort of the same article) mentions this etymology but it doesn't give any sources. You also mentioned a 19th century American dictionary, but I'm not sure that's the place to go to find out how English people were using the word in the 17th. Are there any other references you know of, before I go away and start looking?

This site will allow you to download and watch a powerpoint presentation that gives several dictionaries (even ancient) to describe wine.