Refuting The April 2009 Baptist Challenge...

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Jerry, your post touched on two common misconceptions that cause the discussion of "Tithe -- OT or more?" to degenerate quickly.

 

1) Many times "tithers" think that "anti-tithers" are looking to excuse "stinginess". There are some who will justify not giving bountifully, but not all.

 

2) Many times "anti-tithers" think that "tithers" won't give over 10%. Again, there are some, not all.  Example: I once did the taxes of a man who believed in tithes, offerings and alms as 3 distinct things. He grossed $78,000/ year and gave to the church $25,000+ ( >32% ) in addition to helping people at times in ways not recorded by church records.

 

Actually, a lot of these type discussions develop into misunderstandings through assumptions.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

All tither's misunderstand what God's tithe was and assume (usually because of being lied to) that They are supposed to tithe their money to the Church.

[Salyan]

That's assuming you have the correct interpretation. ;-) But don't we all think we do, or we wouldn't believe what we do! We cling to revealed truth, but must acknowledge that we could nonetheless be mistaken in an area God has not yet made plain to us. In the meantime, grace. It's neither diplomatic nor very nice to tell people that their pastors are liars.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

I don't believe you will change minds.

 

Someone stated, all Baptist Church use to teach tithing, yet that's not true in this part of the country, although more do so today that yesterday years, & it seem the educated pastors from the seminary usually return teaching tithing.

 

Someone else seemed to think that those who do not believe in tithing does not attend church, or that they're not Baptist. I suppose its a way to put us down for our belief. I can't think of any other reason to say that. 

 

I firmly believe that many who teach that thinks it makes more money hit the collection plate. I suppose that might be true for those members that has large incomes.

 

A long time back when we were on this topic someone told me that because I did not believe in tithing that I was robbing God. I Let them get puffed up being proud of their self & their giving their 10% tithe.

 

One thing I do not like to do is tell what I give, I do not want to boast, but even more so its no one else business. yet when that person told me I was robbing God I went back to see what % I had given the previous year. I had given more than 20% & my income for a husband & wife is just barely above the poverty level.

 

Yet the truth is its very difficult for those who have to out give those who do not have. Those who do not have many times sacrifices their necessities to give to the Lord & very seldom get any wants at all, those who have only sacrifice some of their wants. But for many of them that have, they hate to hear this, for they know their giving of 10% of their big income is a very big number. And the only reason i'm saying this is they're doing their best to take any cheerfulness out of the hearts of those who do not have, plus on the issue of tithing they even try to steal God's grace that is given to everyone. Plus tithing is not taught in the New Testament, & it keep many from giving even more than 10 %.

 

And so far I've never been in a Baptist Church that was not very good about giving money to the Lord, most have done so above measure, even without believing in tithing or tithing being taught. I think if they showed a bit of grace they would be amazed at the return it would give them.

 

And the tithers will never understand this verses nor those around it, they will keep on taking it out of context.

 

Mr 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

 

Yet remember what I state earlier, your not going to change their minds, they're stuck on tithing while leaving grace out of it.

 

And that is my humble opinion on the matter, & I am not mad at no one & I am not trying to make anyone mad, there is no hate involved, I'm only telling it like it is. Yet as I before stated I get tired of those who cheat the poor out of being a cheerful giver by giving what they can. And I'm so thankful for the grace that God provides ALL of us. We would all be in major trouble without it.

 

 

Jerry, your post touched on two common misconceptions that cause the discussion of "Tithe -- OT or more?" to degenerate quickly.

 

1) Many times "tithers" think that "anti-tithers" are looking to excuse "stinginess". There are some who will justify not giving bountifully, but not all.

 

2) Many times "anti-tithers" think that "tithers" won't give over 10%. Again, there are some, not all.  Example: I once did the taxes of a man who believed in tithes, offerings and alms as 3 distinct things. He grossed $78,000/ year and gave to the church $25,000+ ( >32% ) in addition to helping people at times in ways not recorded by church records.

 

Actually, a lot of these type discussions develop into misunderstandings through assumptions.

 

 

All tither's misunderstand what God's tithe was and assume (usually because of being lied to) that They are supposed to tithe their money to the Church.

Okay, I probably ought to keep my fingers quiet here but ..........

 

I quoted all 3 to keep the context so HOW does the third statement (SFIC) have ANYTHING to do with the other two???

SFIC, yes this is directed at you.

 

I believe you to be far more intelligent and linguistically skilled to not understand what is being conveyed in people's posts.

You have this way of sidestepping a post into a direction not given to go to a bent you want.

 

I don't care if you give .0001% or steal money so you can give 138% (I actually do care if you steal, but you see what I'm saying).

 

When you said you were put out of a church for the amount you gave but everything you later stated or quoted actually said it wasn't over your money but your teaching, I figured you may not have intended to mislead with your choice of words --- now I'm inclined to think otherwise.

 

If you're bummed out because I addressed misconceptions or accuracy of wording which had nothing to do with whether or not a tithe is applicable for today ------ oh well!  If I wanted to join your game, I would.

 

If I get called on the carpet for this post -- so be it. If I've misrepresented your responses to MY posts (not someone else's) PLEEEEEASE show me.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

That's assuming you have the correct interpretation. ;-) But don't we all think we do, or we wouldn't believe what we do! We cling to revealed truth, but must acknowledge that we could nonetheless be mistaken in an area God has not yet made plain to us. In the meantime, grace. It's neither diplomatic nor very nice to tell people that their pastors are liars.

since the Bible clearly says the tithes are edible, to say they are money, whether out of ignorance or not is still a lie.

[irishman]

since the Bible clearly says the tithes are edible, to say they are money, whether out of ignorance or not is still a lie.

 

We are jumping cultures here.  People mostly did not go to work in a factory, or become firemen, etc., they were mostly people who lived off the land.  Sure, they used money at times, but that was not their livelihood in the Old Testament.  Of course it was crops that they tithed from, that was all they had.  Until New Testament times, we see very little usage of money, except, and perhaps for burial purposes--to purchase plots.  Even then they had no realtors to handle it, it was between the owner and the buyer. 

 

The priests and Levite's did get their portions of the sacrifice, which means the "congregation" took care of the preachers, just as they do today. (1 Cor. 9:14)

 

To accuse tithers of keeping the law is the same as us accusing you of robbing God in tithes and offerings.  Tithing was not even mentioned until Lev. 27:30, then it was claimed by the Lord Himself.

 

Here is what Eastons Bible Dictionary says about the tithe:

 

Tithe
A tenth of the produce of the earth consecrated and set apart for special purposes. The dedication of a tenth to God was recognized as a duty before the time of Moses. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (Gen_14:20; Heb_7:6); and Jacob vowed unto the Lord and said, “Of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.”
The first Mosaic law on this subject is recorded in Lev_27:30-32. Subsequent legislation regulated the destination of the tithes (Num_18:21-24, Num_18:26-28; Deu_12:5, Deu_12:6, Deu_12:11, Deu_12:17; Deu_14:22, Deu_14:23). The paying of the tithes was an important part of the Jewish religious worship. In the days of Hezekiah one of the first results of the reformation of religion was the eagerness with which the people brought in their tithes (2Ch_31:5, 2Ch_31:6). The neglect of this duty was sternly rebuked by the prophets (Amo_4:4; Mal_3:8-10). It cannot be affirmed that the Old Testament law of tithes is binding on the Christian Church, nevertheless the principle of this law remains, and is incorporated in the gospel (1Co_9:13, 1Co_9:14); and if, as is the case, the motive that ought to prompt to liberality in the cause of religion and of the service of God be greater now than in Old Testament times, then Christians ought to go beyond the ancient Hebrew in consecrating both themselves and their substance to God.
Every Jew was required by the Levitical law to pay three tithes of his property
(1.) one tithe for the Levites;
(2.) one for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and
(3.) one for the poor of the land.
 

(Underlining is mine)

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Wrong! Crops was not all they had. Plenty was said about money prior to the Law.

Servants were sold for money, land was sold for money, food was bought with money, tithes were redeemed with money. There clearly was more money than you think.

Nice try though.

The tithe of the congregation never went to the Temple. The tithe of the Levites did.

Again, nice try, but...strike two.

Easton's is wrong. Paul was speaking of traveling ministers, not stationary ones.

Wanna try again?

[Salyan]

since the Bible clearly says the tithes are edible, to say they are money, whether out of ignorance or not is still a lie.

 

It also says that a tithe may be turned into money for a time. And I think you missed my point...

[Standing Firm In Christ]

It also says that a tithe may be turned into money for a time. And I think you missed my point...

actually, it could be exchanged, or sold, for money. but that money must be used to buy the tithe back. I think you missed the Bible's point. The tithe was not money.

[irishman]

I prefer tithing.  if I am wrong what difference does it make, but if you are wrong, well you may be in for some chastisement.  I give with the same attitude that the Bible demands, so please don't judge tithers too harshly; we aren't all doing it our of "forced giving", or under law.  God knows my heart.

 

Bro. Jerry, It is many times harder for those who have a lot of money to give a lot.  The poor man is used to being poor, but the rich does not easily part with his money.  To use the widows mite misses the point.  the point was not merely giving, but giving our all, in every area.  Jesus used it for a "teaching moment".

[JerryNumbers]

Mr 12:41 ¶ And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

Mr 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

Mr 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

Mr 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

 

Like I stated, it is a teaching moment, they cast in their abundance, & make no sacrifice at all, the same as many today that have only cast in their 10%, never sacrificing for the Lord.

 

But many of the poor do actually give, & sacrifice, as I previously stated, because of this many of them are not able to buy a full months prescription of meds, many of the go without food in order to give, & are quality of food. Not those who have, they're able to meet all of their needs & most of their wants.

 

No fear, I know tithing is not taught in the New Testament. If I had a doubt, i would obey this verse.

 

Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

Besides, tithing keeps many from giving to the point they actually make a sacrifice for our Lord.

 

I refuse to set on the fence.

 

I just knew posting that one verse would cause everyone to go back & read all the verses around it so they could get the context. sacrificial giving, few people do that cheerfully. But I do know some elderly people that do it each & every month & I also know many that would steal the grace & cheerfulness that God has for them. And that is the reason I speak out of this issue.

[JerryNumbers]

All tither's misunderstand what God's tithe was and assume (usually because of being lied to) that They are supposed to tithe their money to the Church.

 

I disagree 100% in a way, your to support your local church & its missions God has given it, & the only way that can be done is to give cheerfully to local church your a member plus doing the works God calls you to do in & though your local church.

 

The local church cannot perform its missions, Go, Teach, baptizing............................, God has given it if its member fail to support it by sacrificial giving & pulling their load.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I disagree 100% in a way, your to support your local church & its missions God has given it, & the only way that can be done is to give cheerfully to local church your a member plus doing the works God calls you to do in & though your local church.
 
The local church cannot perform its missions, Go, Teach, baptizing............................, God has given it if its member fail to support it by sacrificial giving & pulling their load.

giving and tithing are not the same. I did not say 'All givers misunderstand God's Word...'.

Those who give their alleged tithe today do so either because they believed the lie from the pulpit that we are to tithe our money, or they read that the tithe wastqen percent of all the seed of the land and they misunderstood it to mean money fell under that category.

[1Timothy115]

 

 

Amen!

[Standing Firm In Christ]

While the word tithe does mean tenth, Irishman is wrong in saying it does not matter what that tenth consists of.

If it didn't matter, God would not have specified what His tithe consisted of. He would have stopped at all the tithe of the land Is holy unto The Lord and left it up to the children of Israel what to tithe.

But He did not leave it up to Israel what the tithe consisted of... He told them what He required as tithe.

And He did not leave it up to the Church to preach what His tithe was to consist of ... He gave the Church His Word. He said Preach the Word, not preach your opinion. His Word tells us His tithe was always edible. He gave no leeway in His Word for man to teach it was to be anything else other than food.

Of course, many have to rely on traditions handed down rather than what saith The Lord.