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Standing Firm In Christ

Refuting The April 2009 Baptist Challenge...

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The Baptist Challenge issued a Newsletter for the month of August of 2009 giving several alleged "Biblical" reasons why the Church is bound to the tithe.  My intentions in this thread is to show the reader why Moser was wrong in several parts of his article.

Point #1.  What is the Tithe?
Moser states that the tithe is a tenth of one's income.  This is  easily shown to be a false statement.  The Bible never says the tithe is a tenth of one's income.  Rather, it says the tithe is from the seed of the land, the fruit of the tree, and every tenth cattle that passeth under the rod. (Lev. 27:30-33)

Moser goes on to say that the tithe is associated with firstfruits.  Again, an incorrect statement.  Tithes and firstfruits were different, which can be clearly seen in Nehemiah 10:37-38.  Firstfruits were taken to the priests, tithes to the Levites.  The children of Israel brought the firstfruits to the storehouse chambers, but the Levite brought the tithe to the storehouse chambers.  Tithing and firstfruits are also differentiated in Nehemiah 12:44.


Point #2.  Except for wrong Scripture reference, not an issue.

Point #3.  Moser claims that every saint and sinner alike should pay tithes.   For proof, he refers to Malachi 3:9.  Again, incorrect.  Malachi was not written to every saint and sinner alike... it was written to the children of Israel. (Malachi 1:1)  And the admonition in Malachi 3:9 was also not to every saint and sinner alike... it was to the Levites, who were responsible for taking the tithe into the storehouse (Nehemiah 10:37-38)  The children of Israel were not told to bring the tithe of the tithe into the storehouse, the Levites were.  The children were told to bring the tithe to the Levites.  The Levites were told to bring a tithe of the tithe into the storehouse.

Point #4.  Where to bring the tithe... Moser states that the tithe is to be brought to the Church.  Yet, the Bible never teaches a tithe is to be brought to the Church.  In the Old Testament, God said the tithe was to be brought to the storehouse.  2 Chronicles 31 tells us where those storehouses were.  There is no Scripture that says God ever instructed the tithe to be taken to the Church, nor is there any Scripture that calls the Church the storehouse. 

Point #5.  Have we the right to withhold tithes?... Moser says no!  But the Bible tells us something entirely different.  The Bible tells us that the ordinances were taken out of the way and nailed to the cross.  We are told by Paul that we who have placed our faith in Christ are not under the Law... yet Moser wants to put every Baptist under the Law.  Paul said those who allow themselves to be placed under the Law have been bewitched and calls them foolish for allowing such.  IN Acts 15, the Gentile Converts receive a letter from the Apostles stating what  was required of them, and tithing was not one of those "necessary things." 

Point #6.  Is the Tithe Binding on us today?  Moser says, Without a doubt!  But how can it be when the decision of the Jerusalem Council was not to put us under the Mosaic Law?  How can it be when Paul said our giving was to be "as one purposeth in his heart, so let him give"?

Point #7.  Did Jesus approve the tithe?  Moser says yes, and quotes Matthew 23:23.  This is poor hermeneutics at best.  Jesus was not speaking to the Church, He was speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees who were under the Law.  Of course He approved their tithe.  The Law required it.  But notice what they tithed... garden produce, not money.  The tithe Jesus approved is not the same "tithe" being preached in the majority of Churches today.

Point #8.  Moser uses Hebrews 7:21 to support tithing.  But he fails to tell the reader that the tithe being referred to was not Abram's own property... it was the spoils of war.  Nor was the tithe Levi received income... it was increase.

Point #9.  Moser refers to Malachi's blessing to the land of Israel for tithing, implying that God will open the windows of heaven and pour out blessings upon the tither of money today.  Of course, Moser is taking that verse out of context.

Point # 10.  Moser claims if one doesn't tithe, that one is subject to epidemics, famines, pestilences, and personal difficulties.  Since there is no instruction for us to tithe today, Moser's article is only good for kindling the fireplace.

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I actually thought the article was lacking depth apart from anything else.
his arguments are so Incredibly brief that there is little point discussing them.
on the face of it, many of his references seem to have vague application at best, and it could be argued that many of them are totally irrelevant.

and thanks for bringing it out of the other thread. ;)

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The Baptist Challenge's April 2010 article "A Tenth of All" by Norman Wells is even more pathetic than Moser's was the previous year. 

Wells claims that tithing began in the Garden of Eden and that the tree that Adam and Eve partook of was God's portion.  Excuse me???  Where does the Bible say the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was "God's Portion"?  I can't find that verse.

Wells then breaks down the instruction of Malachi 3:8-11 in a feeble attempt to convince the readers that they are bound to the tithe today.  Sadly, many are bewitched by such writings as those of Wells and Moser and foolishly place themselves under the Law because they are convinced by man's opinion rather than God's Word.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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That's a major false allegation accusing those who hold to NT giving rather than OT tithe. Typically, in churches which follow NT giving, the congregation gives more than those who call for the OT tithe.

 

While I've heard many OT tithe preachers continually preaching the congregation should tithe because the church needs the money, I've never heard such in a NT giving church.

 

Some claim tithers are blessed because they tithe (which is the same message prosperity preachers preach) yet they ignore the tens of thousands who tithe and end up in poverty, debt or loss.

 

The only way one can even try to say a Christian should tithe is by looking back to the Old Covenant with Israel. If one looks to the commands given in the New Covenant to Christians it's perfectly clear that giving is to come from the heart as the Lord leads.

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Amen, John 81! It is sad that some think we are under the Law.

Sorry Irishman, but law and grace don't mix. All instances of tithing in the Bible are under the Law. You can choose to put yourself under the Law if you wish, but to judge us for living in the Grace the is bestowed to us is not only legalism, but also prideful arrogance.

We are not instructed to tithe in the New Testament, but rather to choose what we give of our own accord. Sure, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, but those who are Christ's have been given a new heart.

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Amen, John 81! It is sad that some think we are under the Law.

Sorry Irishman, but law and grace don't mix.

So Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when He said He was not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it? Is not all Scripture given for instruction in righteousness? Be very careful of what you say, because often your words speak of more than you intended. Language is very important, let's try to use it properly.

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So Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when He said He was not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it? Is not all Scripture given for instruction in righteousness? Be very careful of what you say, because often your words speak of more than you intended. Language is very important, let's try to use it properly.


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might bejustified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

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Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might bejustified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So in other words, I don't need to study anything in the law because none of it applies to me.

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So in other words, I don't need to study anything in the law because none of it applies to me.

the Law is a record of how God dealt with the Jews. We can learn from it, but Paul clearly says if we put ourselves under the Law we must continue in all things written in the Law to do them.

So tell me, is what you are wearing made of more than one material? Probably. Why are you defending a yoke that not even yourself can bear?

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the Law is a record of how God dealt with the Jews. We can learn from it, but Paul clearly says if we put ourselves under the Law we must continue in all things written in the Law to do them.

So tell me, is what you are wearing made of more than one material? Probably. Why are you defending a yoke that not even yourself can bear?

 

I don't believe you will change minds.

 

Someone stated, all Baptist Church use to teach tithing, yet that's not true in this part of the country, although more do so today that yesterday years, & it seem the educated pastors from the seminary usually return teaching tithing.

 

Someone else seemed to think that those who do not believe in tithing does not attend church, or that they're not Baptist. I suppose its a way to put us down for our belief. I can't think of any other reason to say that. 

 

I firmly believe that many who teach that thinks it makes more money hit the collection plate. I suppose that might be true for those members that has large incomes.

 

A long time back when we were on this topic someone told me that because I did not believe in tithing that I was robbing God. I Let them get puffed up being proud of their self & their giving their 10% tithe.

 

One thing I do not like to do is tell what I give, I do not want to boast, but even more so its no one else business. yet when that person told me I was robbing God I went back to see what % I had given the previous year. I had given more than 20% & my income for a husband & wife is just barely above the poverty level.

 

Yet the truth is its very difficult for those who have to out give those who do not have. Those who do not have many times sacrifices their necessities to give to the Lord & very seldom get any wants at all, those who have only sacrifice some of their wants. But for many of them that have, they hate to hear this, for they know their giving of 10% of their big income is a very big number. And the only reason i'm saying this is they're doing their best to take any cheerfulness out of the hearts of those who do not have, plus on the issue of tithing they even try to steal God's grace that is given to everyone. Plus tithing is not taught in the New Testament, & it keep many from giving even more than 10 %.

 

And so far I've never been in a Baptist Church that was not very good about giving money to the Lord, most have done so above measure, even without believing in tithing or tithing being taught. I think if they showed a bit of grace they would be amazed at the return it would give them.

 

And the tithers will never understand this verses nor those around it, they will keep on taking it out of context.

 

Mr 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

 

Yet remember what I state earlier, your not going to change their minds, they're stuck on tithing while leaving grace out of it.

 

And that is my humble opinion on the matter, & I am not mad at no one & I am not trying to make anyone mad, there is no hate involved, I'm only telling it like it is. Yet as I before stated I get tired of those who cheat the poor out of being a cheerful giver by giving what they can. And I'm so thankful for the grace that God provides ALL of us. We would all be in major trouble without it.

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Don't be too quick to say he will not change minds, I have had a small change in the way I think with this.  Not completely but I would encourage you to not diminish the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

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Jerry, your post touched on two common misconceptions that cause the discussion of "Tithe -- OT or more?" to degenerate quickly.

 

1) Many times "tithers" think that "anti-tithers" are looking to excuse "stinginess". There are some who will justify not giving bountifully, but not all.

 

2) Many times "anti-tithers" think that "tithers" won't give over 10%. Again, there are some, not all.  Example: I once did the taxes of a man who believed in tithes, offerings and alms as 3 distinct things. He grossed $78,000/ year and gave to the church $25,000+ ( >32% ) in addition to helping people at times in ways not recorded by church records.

 

Actually, a lot of these type discussions develop into misunderstandings through assumptions.

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That's assuming you have the correct interpretation. ;-) But don't we all think we do, or we wouldn't believe what we do! We cling to revealed truth, but must acknowledge that we could nonetheless be mistaken in an area God has not yet made plain to us. In the meantime, grace. It's neither diplomatic nor very nice to tell people that their pastors are liars.

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I don't believe you will change minds.

 

Someone stated, all Baptist Church use to teach tithing, yet that's not true in this part of the country, although more do so today that yesterday years, & it seem the educated pastors from the seminary usually return teaching tithing.

 

Someone else seemed to think that those who do not believe in tithing does not attend church, or that they're not Baptist. I suppose its a way to put us down for our belief. I can't think of any other reason to say that. 

 

I firmly believe that many who teach that thinks it makes more money hit the collection plate. I suppose that might be true for those members that has large incomes.

 

A long time back when we were on this topic someone told me that because I did not believe in tithing that I was robbing God. I Let them get puffed up being proud of their self & their giving their 10% tithe.

 

One thing I do not like to do is tell what I give, I do not want to boast, but even more so its no one else business. yet when that person told me I was robbing God I went back to see what % I had given the previous year. I had given more than 20% & my income for a husband & wife is just barely above the poverty level.

 

Yet the truth is its very difficult for those who have to out give those who do not have. Those who do not have many times sacrifices their necessities to give to the Lord & very seldom get any wants at all, those who have only sacrifice some of their wants. But for many of them that have, they hate to hear this, for they know their giving of 10% of their big income is a very big number. And the only reason i'm saying this is they're doing their best to take any cheerfulness out of the hearts of those who do not have, plus on the issue of tithing they even try to steal God's grace that is given to everyone. Plus tithing is not taught in the New Testament, & it keep many from giving even more than 10 %.

 

And so far I've never been in a Baptist Church that was not very good about giving money to the Lord, most have done so above measure, even without believing in tithing or tithing being taught. I think if they showed a bit of grace they would be amazed at the return it would give them.

 

And the tithers will never understand this verses nor those around it, they will keep on taking it out of context.

 

Mr 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

 

Yet remember what I state earlier, your not going to change their minds, they're stuck on tithing while leaving grace out of it.

 

And that is my humble opinion on the matter, & I am not mad at no one & I am not trying to make anyone mad, there is no hate involved, I'm only telling it like it is. Yet as I before stated I get tired of those who cheat the poor out of being a cheerful giver by giving what they can. And I'm so thankful for the grace that God provides ALL of us. We would all be in major trouble without it.

 

 

Jerry, your post touched on two common misconceptions that cause the discussion of "Tithe -- OT or more?" to degenerate quickly.

 

1) Many times "tithers" think that "anti-tithers" are looking to excuse "stinginess". There are some who will justify not giving bountifully, but not all.

 

2) Many times "anti-tithers" think that "tithers" won't give over 10%. Again, there are some, not all.  Example: I once did the taxes of a man who believed in tithes, offerings and alms as 3 distinct things. He grossed $78,000/ year and gave to the church $25,000+ ( >32% ) in addition to helping people at times in ways not recorded by church records.

 

Actually, a lot of these type discussions develop into misunderstandings through assumptions.

 

 

All tither's misunderstand what God's tithe was and assume (usually because of being lied to) that They are supposed to tithe their money to the Church.

Okay, I probably ought to keep my fingers quiet here but ..........

 

I quoted all 3 to keep the context so HOW does the third statement (SFIC) have ANYTHING to do with the other two???

SFIC, yes this is directed at you.

 

I believe you to be far more intelligent and linguistically skilled to not understand what is being conveyed in people's posts.

You have this way of sidestepping a post into a direction not given to go to a bent you want.

 

I don't care if you give .0001% or steal money so you can give 138% (I actually do care if you steal, but you see what I'm saying).

 

When you said you were put out of a church for the amount you gave but everything you later stated or quoted actually said it wasn't over your money but your teaching, I figured you may not have intended to mislead with your choice of words --- now I'm inclined to think otherwise.

 

If you're bummed out because I addressed misconceptions or accuracy of wording which had nothing to do with whether or not a tithe is applicable for today ------ oh well!  If I wanted to join your game, I would.

 

If I get called on the carpet for this post -- so be it. If I've misrepresented your responses to MY posts (not someone else's) PLEEEEEASE show me.

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That's assuming you have the correct interpretation. ;-) But don't we all think we do, or we wouldn't believe what we do! We cling to revealed truth, but must acknowledge that we could nonetheless be mistaken in an area God has not yet made plain to us. In the meantime, grace. It's neither diplomatic nor very nice to tell people that their pastors are liars.

since the Bible clearly says the tithes are edible, to say they are money, whether out of ignorance or not is still a lie.

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since the Bible clearly says the tithes are edible, to say they are money, whether out of ignorance or not is still a lie.

 

We are jumping cultures here.  People mostly did not go to work in a factory, or become firemen, etc., they were mostly people who lived off the land.  Sure, they used money at times, but that was not their livelihood in the Old Testament.  Of course it was crops that they tithed from, that was all they had.  Until New Testament times, we see very little usage of money, except, and perhaps for burial purposes--to purchase plots.  Even then they had no realtors to handle it, it was between the owner and the buyer. 

 

The priests and Levite's did get their portions of the sacrifice, which means the "congregation" took care of the preachers, just as they do today. (1 Cor. 9:14)

 

To accuse tithers of keeping the law is the same as us accusing you of robbing God in tithes and offerings.  Tithing was not even mentioned until Lev. 27:30, then it was claimed by the Lord Himself.

 

Here is what Eastons Bible Dictionary says about the tithe:

 

Tithe
A tenth of the produce of the earth consecrated and set apart for special purposes. The dedication of a tenth to God was recognized as a duty before the time of Moses. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (Gen_14:20; Heb_7:6); and Jacob vowed unto the Lord and said, “Of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.”
The first Mosaic law on this subject is recorded in Lev_27:30-32. Subsequent legislation regulated the destination of the tithes (Num_18:21-24, Num_18:26-28; Deu_12:5, Deu_12:6, Deu_12:11, Deu_12:17; Deu_14:22, Deu_14:23). The paying of the tithes was an important part of the Jewish religious worship. In the days of Hezekiah one of the first results of the reformation of religion was the eagerness with which the people brought in their tithes (2Ch_31:5, 2Ch_31:6). The neglect of this duty was sternly rebuked by the prophets (Amo_4:4; Mal_3:8-10). It cannot be affirmed that the Old Testament law of tithes is binding on the Christian Church, nevertheless the principle of this law remains, and is incorporated in the gospel (1Co_9:13, 1Co_9:14); and if, as is the case, the motive that ought to prompt to liberality in the cause of religion and of the service of God be greater now than in Old Testament times, then Christians ought to go beyond the ancient Hebrew in consecrating both themselves and their substance to God.
Every Jew was required by the Levitical law to pay three tithes of his property
(1.) one tithe for the Levites;
(2.) one for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and
(3.) one for the poor of the land.
 

(Underlining is mine)

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Wrong! Crops was not all they had. Plenty was said about money prior to the Law.

Servants were sold for money, land was sold for money, food was bought with money, tithes were redeemed with money. There clearly was more money than you think.

Nice try though.

The tithe of the congregation never went to the Temple. The tithe of the Levites did.

Again, nice try, but...strike two.

Easton's is wrong. Paul was speaking of traveling ministers, not stationary ones.

Wanna try again?

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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since the Bible clearly says the tithes are edible, to say they are money, whether out of ignorance or not is still a lie.

 

It also says that a tithe may be turned into money for a time. And I think you missed my point...

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I prefer tithing.  if I am wrong what difference does it make, but if you are wrong, well you may be in for some chastisement.  I give with the same attitude that the Bible demands, so please don't judge tithers too harshly; we aren't all doing it our of "forced giving", or under law.  God knows my heart.

 

Bro. Jerry, It is many times harder for those who have a lot of money to give a lot.  The poor man is used to being poor, but the rich does not easily part with his money.  To use the widows mite misses the point.  the point was not merely giving, but giving our all, in every area.  Jesus used it for a "teaching moment".

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      Thankfully, God does not hold us to the Law of the tithe. In Romans 7 we are told that if the saved go to the house of the Law, it is an act of adultery. Let us strive to be faithful to Christ and not be guilty of going to the house of the Law while married to the One who was raised from the dead. RWR
    • By Standing Firm In Christ
      Malachi 3:8-12 Will a man rOB God? Yet ye have rOBbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we rOBbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have rOBbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

      Many a pastor stands behind his pulpit and reads the above verses to their congregations. Some with an honest heart, some with a dishonest heart.

      It is those with the dishonest hearts that this message is for today.

      In his epistle to the churches at Galatia, the Apostle Paul warned the saints of the penalty for following after the works of the flesh:

      Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

      The word “witchcraft” in verse 20 of the passage above is translated from the Greek word “pharmakeia.” It is where we get our word “pharmacy” from.

      The interliner defines “pharmakeia” in four ways:
      1. the use or the administering of drugs
      2. poisoning
      3. sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
      4. metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

      I do not believe that Paul is condemning all uses of “drugs” per se. Rather, he is speaking of one who addicts oneself to the use of drugs simply for the purpose of escape from reality…. mind control. But mind control and drugs are not what my message tonight is about. Nor is it about a physical poisoning, nor of witchcraft in the sense of amulets and charms to ward off certain things.

      Tonight’s message is about deception and seduction, the fourth definition in the list I have provided above.

      In the first two paragraphs of this message, I said that some pastors read Malachi 3:8-12 with a dishonest heart. It is those pastors that are guilty of a form of witchcraft; specifically, deception and seduction

      They are deceptive, in that Malachi 3 is not speaking about tithes of money. God ‘s instruction to Malachi was speaking of a tithe of food; i.e., crops and livestock. This can be easily seen when one examines the passage and then allows Scripture to interpret Scripture.

      “Bring ye all the tithes”

      All the what?

      “All the tithes”

      What tithes? What is God speaking of when He says “All the tithes”? If I were to just read Malachi 3:10, and that verse alone, I would have absolutely no clue as to what tithes God is speaking of. Well, maybe a hint is seen in the word “Meat” in verse 10, but just looking at the beginning of the verse and not reading the whole verse would certainly leave one scratching one’s head.

      What tithes am I supposed to bring? Thankfully, God did not leave us hanging. Rather, He gave us the answer when He continued “that there may be meat in mine house.”

      Now, as I said, many pastors have an honest heart. Many will tell their congregations that the word “MEAT” in verse 10 is referring to food. Conversely, many pastors are deceptive and teach their congregations that Malachi 3:8-12 is speaking of money being the titheable item that God demands.

      Further, those same teachers and preachers that teach that Malachi 3:8-10 is speaking of a monetary tithe also teach that if the church member will tithe his or her money, God promises to open the windows and pour out a blessing upon them.

      There, the minister is using both deception and seduction in order to cause his flock to put 10% of their hard-earned money into a white envelope and subsequently into the coffers of the church they attend. He first deceives them into believing that a command given to ancient Israel is also meant for the Church. Secondly, he deceives them into believing the command is for monetary tithes when the Law specifically stated that the tithes were to be agricultural in nature. And lastly, he seduces them into believing they are going to be blessed by God if they “OBey” his command to tithe.

      Another deception put forth by the pastor is manifest when the pastor says that “to the storehouse” means “to the Church.” Friends, the storehouse that God was speaking of in the Malachi passage was not the Church… it was a storehouse within the Temple at Jersualem. God never moved that storehouse to any location. Nor did He give Gentile Churches authority to set up their own “storehouses” all over the world. There is not one instance in the post-crucifixion epistles that instruct Bishops, Elders or Pastors to set up storehouses and require monetary tithes of their flocks.

      Do not be deceived. Open your Bibles and study out the passages on tithing. When you do, you will find that the pastor that told you to “bring the tithes of money as commanded by God” was deceiving you and seducing you with promises that God never gave to you.

      In reality, God isn’t demanding the tithe of the church member. The deceptive and seductive leader is.
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