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Standing Firm In Christ

Refuting The April 2009 Baptist Challenge...

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Mr 12:41 ¶ And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mr 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mr 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mr 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

 

Like I stated, it is a teaching moment, they cast in their abundance, & make no sacrifice at all, the same as many today that have only cast in their 10%, never sacrificing for the Lord.

 

But many of the poor do actually give, & sacrifice, as I previously stated, because of this many of them are not able to buy a full months prescription of meds, many of the go without food in order to give, & are quality of food. Not those who have, they're able to meet all of their needs & most of their wants.

 

No fear, I know tithing is not taught in the New Testament. If I had a doubt, i would obey this verse.

 

Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

Besides, tithing keeps many from giving to the point they actually make a sacrifice for our Lord.

 

I refuse to set on the fence.

 

I just knew posting that one verse would cause everyone to go back & read all the verses around it so they could get the context. sacrificial giving, few people do that cheerfully. But I do know some elderly people that do it each & every month & I also know many that would steal the grace & cheerfulness that God has for them. And that is the reason I speak out of this issue.

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All tither's misunderstand what God's tithe was and assume (usually because of being lied to) that They are supposed to tithe their money to the Church.

 

I disagree 100% in a way, your to support your local church & its missions God has given it, & the only way that can be done is to give cheerfully to local church your a member plus doing the works God calls you to do in & though your local church.

 

The local church cannot perform its missions, Go, Teach, baptizing............................, God has given it if its member fail to support it by sacrificial giving & pulling their load.

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I disagree 100% in a way, your to support your local church & its missions God has given it, & the only way that can be done is to give cheerfully to local church your a member plus doing the works God calls you to do in & though your local church.
 
The local church cannot perform its missions, Go, Teach, baptizing............................, God has given it if its member fail to support it by sacrificial giving & pulling their load.

giving and tithing are not the same. I did not say 'All givers misunderstand God's Word...'.

Those who give their alleged tithe today do so either because they believed the lie from the pulpit that we are to tithe our money, or they read that the tithe wastqen percent of all the seed of the land and they misunderstood it to mean money fell under that category.

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While the word tithe does mean tenth, Irishman is wrong in saying it does not matter what that tenth consists of.

If it didn't matter, God would not have specified what His tithe consisted of. He would have stopped at all the tithe of the land Is holy unto The Lord and left it up to the children of Israel what to tithe.

But He did not leave it up to Israel what the tithe consisted of... He told them what He required as tithe.

And He did not leave it up to the Church to preach what His tithe was to consist of ... He gave the Church His Word. He said Preach the Word, not preach your opinion. His Word tells us His tithe was always edible. He gave no leeway in His Word for man to teach it was to be anything else other than food.

Of course, many have to rely on traditions handed down rather than what saith The Lord.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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But the first tithe mentioned was not edible.
it matters not who gave and to whom on this point - Abram's tithe, Which was Acceptable to the priest of the Lord, most certainly was not edible.

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Abram's tithe were the spoils of war (Hebrews 7:4) and was not the same type of tithe as the Levitical tithe which was always edible. (Leviticus 27:30-34)

Edited by LindaR

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The first tithe was a combination of many different things. Food and clothing were among those things.

Can you show me where, after Jesus said,"it is finished", the tithe reverted back to a tithe of many things? If it did revert back to Abram's tithe then we still don't have to tithe unless we go out on a rescue mission and tithe off of the spoils of war.

The fact is, God said He gave His tithe to Israel, not Ireland, not India, not any other nation.

Where is your scripture that God extended His tithe to the ends of the Earth? God gave it to a specific people in a specific location. Unless you can produce Scripture that says God extended the tithe, lifting the regulations He set forth in The Law, you are arguing from outside of Scripture.

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Abram's tithe were the spoils of war (Hebrews 7:4) and were not the same type of tithe as the Levitical tithe which was always edible. (Leviticus 27:30-34)


No argument there.
But the plain fact is that it is incorrect to say the tithe was always edible.
The first tithe mentioned b in the Bible was clearly not edible.
Argue if you like that the Levitical tithe was, but it must be qualified.

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No argument there.
But the plain fact is that it is incorrect to say the tithe was always edible.
The first tithe mentioned b in the Bible was clearly not edible.
Argue if you like that the Levitical tithe was, but it must be qualified.

While it is correct to say the tithe was not always edible, it is obvious that God made it edible under the Law. Where is the Scripture that says God amended the tithe to a tithe of money for the NT Church?

And for the record, I always specified that the Law tithe was edible.

Something to think about... Abram's tithe was a tenth of the spoils. Numbers 31 reveals that God required far, far less than a tenth of spoils of war. Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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No argument there.
But the plain fact is that it is incorrect to say the tithe was always edible.
The first tithe mentioned b in the Bible was clearly not edible.
Argue if you like that the Levitical tithe was, but it must be qualified.

Abram's tithe was a combination of food (edible items) and probably clothing.  Genesis 14:24 states that some of that booty (spoils) was eaten by Abram's men:

 

Genesis 14:24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Edited by LindaR

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This thread is an example of how we can so easily follow tradition, our own preference, the way we've always done things, rather than simply accepting what Scripture teaches. The Old Covenant, of which the tithe was a part, was for the Jews. The New Covenant is for Christians, all who are born again in Christ. One cannot read the New Covenant and think they need to tithe because it's simply not there.

 

The amount a tither gives or a non-tither givers, has no bearing whatsoever upon what the Word of God says regarding Christian giving.

 

Obviously it makes a difference whether we tithe out of OT obligation or we give in accordance with New Covenant precepts for giving otherwise Scripture wouldn't make the distinction. A Christians giving is not to be done under compulsion (to say one must tithe is compulsion), rather it is to be cheerfully from the heart as the Lord leads.

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Those who don't like to give cheerfully whether tithe or from the increase God provides them for the church, the poor, or for missions will either find an excuse not to give or they won't even bother with an excuse. They will justify themselves among themselves. 

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Those who don't like to give cheerfully whether tithe or from the increase God provides them for the church, the poor, or for missions will either find an excuse not to give or they won't even bother with an excuse. They will justify themselves among themselves. 

True, yet that doesn't have any bearing upon the clear teaching of Scripture as to how Christians are to give.

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True, yet that doesn't have any bearing upon the clear teaching of Scripture as to how Christians are to give.

it is clear that some do not care what Scripture says concerning Christian giving. They want us to bow to a doctrine established centuries after the Apostles died. They themselves would rather follow the traditions of man than what Scripture says concerning giving. Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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I believe Jesus earthly ministry was primarily to Israel-though most of what He spke of would be transferred to the churches, as well. However, with the exception of His one dealing with the issue of tithing with the Pharisees, who tended to be...uh...legalistic, I don't believe Jesus ever spoke of it again. And really, the tithing wasn't really the context of his menionting it-it was just one point of their legalism and hypocrisy He was trying to teach them about. And with the widow's mite, this was a lesson of giving your all to God, rather than just a legalistic tenth and believing you've done your required part-it was, again, Jesus helping others to understand the spirit of the law, over the letter. Jesus wasn't saying we all have to cast all we have into the box, as it were, but that the widow's heart was fully after God, that she understood that God would be her help, and she was willing to do what she could for Him. Its the Isaiah 1issue: God wants our hearts, first-He wants us to be ALL His. If your heart isn't in it, He doesn't want you to give anything else, if its being done out of purely duty and requirement-He wants obedience, following the heart-He wants us to give because we love Him. Sure, there are days when our hearts may not be in it-and then we may give or do out of duty-I don't think that's bad, just that it should be the exception.

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I believe Jesus earthly ministry was primarily to Israel-though most of what He spke of would be transferred to the churches, as well. However, with the exception of His one dealing with the issue of tithing with the Pharisees, who tended to be...uh...legalistic, I don't believe Jesus ever spoke of it again. And really, the tithing wasn't really the context of his menionting it-it was just one point of their legalism and hypocrisy He was trying to teach them about. And with the widow's mite, this was a lesson of giving your all to God, rather than just a legalistic tenth and believing you've done your required part-it was, again, Jesus helping others to understand the spirit of the law, over the letter. Jesus wasn't saying we all have to cast all we have into the box, as it were, but that the widow's heart was fully after God, that she understood that God would be her help, and she was willing to do what she could for Him. Its the Isaiah 1issue: God wants our hearts, first-He wants us to be ALL His. If your heart isn't in it, He doesn't want you to give anything else, if its being done out of purely duty and requirement-He wants obedience, following the heart-He wants us to give because we love Him. Sure, there are days when our hearts may not be in it-and then we may give or do out of duty-I don't think that's bad, just that it should be the exception.

 

Excellent points again Mike. The issue of tithe along with many others smacks of pharisitical legalism and not church age following of Christ.

Laws such as this are a comfort crutch for many believers, particularily fundamental baptists; it gives them a zone to feel right with God and comfortable.

 

I say, the minute you feel right with God is when you are the MOST BACKSLIDDEN.

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I believe Jesus earthly ministry was primarily to Israel-though most of what He spke of would be transferred to the churches, as well. However, with the exception of His one dealing with the issue of tithing with the Pharisees, who tended to be...uh...legalistic, I don't believe Jesus ever spoke of it again. And really, the tithing wasn't really the context of his menionting it-it was just one point of their legalism and hypocrisy He was trying to teach them about. And with the widow's mite, this was a lesson of giving your all to God, rather than just a legalistic tenth and believing you've done your required part-it was, again, Jesus helping others to understand the spirit of the law, over the letter. Jesus wasn't saying we all have to cast all we have into the box, as it were, but that the widow's heart was fully after God, that she understood that God would be her help, and she was willing to do what she could for Him. Its the Isaiah 1issue: God wants our hearts, first-He wants us to be ALL His. If your heart isn't in it, He doesn't want you to give anything else, if its being done out of purely duty and requirement-He wants obedience, following the heart-He wants us to give because we love Him. Sure, there are days when our hearts may not be in it-and then we may give or do out of duty-I don't think that's bad, just that it should be the exception.

 

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

Isn't that true, you stated that very good. And some take the legalistic approach to giving while teaching it as well. And i will say it again, the thing that gets me the most on this is how they treat the poor & elderly who have little money. They steal their cheer.

 

One Independent Baptist Church in our neck of the woods the pastor whom I like, but care not for his ways, is the dictator of his church. He says he has never had a man in his church that was worthy of being a deacon, & therefore has never had a deacon. He welcomes all members with open arm, & throughout the years by visitation has had many members. But he had failed to keep many of them. If he had only kept half of those he had gained his numbers would run 400 to 600 on any give Sunday instead of 20 to 40.

 

He makes all decisions, he handles all of the money, he teaches tithing. I said he welcomes all members with open arms, that is they're welcome to come attend all services, place money in the collection plate, listen to the teachers & his preaching, ask for prayers & ect., & do what ever he may ask of them. Yet their not welcome to be involved in the fiances or question him in any manner about how the business of this church is run. He is a perfect example of a pastor dictator.

 

Many years ago during his younger days as a pastor he had a bad experience with some deacons & he has stated to me he is going to make sure that will never happen again. 

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He had a bad experience with deacons and is determined to not let that happen again?

 

Many years ago I had a bad experience with work and still work.

 

Kinda like the excuse "I was made to go to church all the time as a kid and that's why I don't go know", well I was made to brush my teeth and still do it.

 

I know a pastor who says you should never get too close to church members because you might get hurt, I told him that's why you should never have kids, have friends, or even go through life -- you WILL get hurt.

 

 

Makes you want to do what my oldest grandson did about 8 years ago -- he slapped his forehead, threw his head back and said "Oh, I'm surrounded by idiots"

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A comment about Jesus' earthly ministry

 

Mt 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
 
Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 
Its true in the 1st part of His ministry they were ministering only to the house of Israel. Yet His own.
 
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
 
And thus the gates were open to all gentiles, & thus much of the new Testament Teaching are directly to whosoever will, & that which is not still applies to all of us.
 
I'm always amazed at those who says so much of the Bible does not apply to us at all, they're mislead to the extreme.

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That reminded me of a Pastor in Tennessee who would not have a Communion Service.  His reason?  He said he knew his members and he was afraid all of them would drop dead if they partook of the Communion.

A pastor should not be dictator.  Nor should he handle all matters of the Church.  According to Acts, deacons are necessary in any Church.  They are to wait tables; i.e., see to the material needs of the Church.  A pastor doesn't should not be the one handling the money.  If there is no one qualified to be a Treasurer, then don't take collections... simple as that.  Paul said in his epistle to the Church at Corinth that would not take payment for preaching the Gospel, lest the Gospel be hindered.

Now, the pastor you mentioned may not be giving himself a salary, or he may.  Regardless, someone else should be the one handling the money so as not to hinder the Gospel.

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I admit that my wife and I handle pretty much all the church business. However, that doesn't mean they aren't involved-I don't make decisions about church business without bringing it before the church. For instance, we have had juniper bushes out in front of the church since I came here, but I wanted to take them out, especially since the roots are messing up the lines to the septic tank. So I brought it to the church, sought their thoughts on it, and what to do with the space, now empty. As a church, we decided to replace them with garden boxes, wherein will be some flowers, as well as tomatoes, so everyone can enjoy both the looks and the maters!

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