Faith Healing Criminal Case

[Anon]

http://www.phillyburbs.com/ap/state/pa/no-bail-for-pa-parents-in-faith-healing-death/article_7273ce06-1b1c-598a-94ff-334656fbb63f.html

 

 

Okay, first read the link.

 

Second, I have a list of questions for thought, because I'm not sure what I believe about this.  I, myself, like my medical care, so I have no thoughts of believing like the family in the above link.  However, here are my thoughts.

 

1.  If medical care is a paid service, are we required to use it?

 

2.  If medical cures were not available for sickness 100 years ago, does it make it murder if we do not use the "cures" today?

 

3.  Is medical care a privilege, or a right?  

 

4.  If medical care is a privilege, why would we be required to use it?

 

5.  If medical care is a right, then why do we have to spend so much money on it?

 

 

That said, I can't imagine parents not taking their kid to the doctor.  But...my question boils down to...is it criminal if they do not?  Or just sad and stupid?  Evidently our government says that it is criminal.

 

Interesting thoughts, especially in light of abortion rights.

[Salyan]

You've got some thought-provoking questions there. If medical care costs money, how can it be required - unless those requiring it are also willing to pay? If the government is going to make it a criminal act to not take a child for treatment, they are going to have to provide the treatment costs.

 

In our societies, today, too, the lines between privilege and right are so blurred it is difficult to make a distinction (from the societal perspective).

Edited May 24, 2013 by salyan

[Ukulelemike]

I wonder what the illnesses were? Does the state have the burden of proof to prove that the children would have definitely lived with medical care?

 

If we can be sued or prosecuted for someone dying when medical care was not sought, can we then sue and prosecute the medical profession each time medical care is sought, and they still die?

[Anon]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-05-22/news/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-babybre94l1as-20130522_1_catherine-schaible-first-century-gospel-church-north-philadelphia

 

Looks like it was pneumonia/strep.

[JerryNumbers]

It seems if we are fast becoming a dictatorship, that we must do what Washington says is best for us & our children.

 

It use to be medical care was a privileged, & each citizen chose it on their own, or refused it. But since the dictatorship started kicking in that has changed.

 

I myself fail to understand the father & mother who refuse health care for their dying child, yet, it seems 100% wrong for the government to force them, & force health care on every citizen, even if they don't want it.

 

Do you think their, Washington, in cohorts with the insurance companies with them giving kickbacks for all the newly insured people, even the ones the governments pays for.

 

I've heard it said, insurance companies will rule the world. And of course this country is all about having much money, built on money, capitalism, which is just a another ism.

[JimsHelpmeet]

http://www.phillyburbs.com/ap/state/pa/no-bail-for-pa-parents-in-faith-healing-death/article_7273ce06-1b1c-598a-94ff-334656fbb63f.html

 

 

Okay, first read the link.

 

Second, I have a list of questions for thought, because I'm not sure what I believe about this.  I, myself, like my medical care, so I have no thoughts of believing like the family in the above link.  However, here are my thoughts.

 

1.  If medical care is a paid service, are we required to use it?

 

In a rational, free society we would't be; however, we're teetering on the edge of what resembles a dictatorship. I have been called all sorts of ugly names just because I opt out of getting a flu shot every year. Parents can have their newborns taken from them in the hospital by CPS for not consenting to a vitamin K shot. Under Obamacare, there are rules in place that are supposed to make yearly physical and mental health screenings mandatory.

 

 

 

2.  If medical cures were not available for sickness 100 years ago, does it make it murder if we do not use the "cures" today

I don't think what these parents did was murder, but it is gross neglect. This is the second child that has died under their care due to lack of proper medical care. Now, I don't vaccinate my son and we don't run to the doctor every little bump, scrape, or sniffle, but if he was running a high fever and was vomiting and coughing for a few days in a row with no relief, I would take him to a doctor. True, they didn't have medical care like we have today 100 years ago, but parents also lost many children long before they should have from very common illnesses that we know how to treat today.

 

 

 

3.  Is medical care a privilege, or a right?

 

I don't think it's either. I see medical care as a service. 

 

  

 

4.  If medical care is a privilege, why would we be required to use it?

 

We shouldn't, but I don't know how I feel about parents denying emergency medical care to a severely sick or injured child. I think at that point it would be obvious common sense has left the parents.

 

 

 

5.  If medical care is a right, then why do we have to spend so much money on it?

 

Without trying to sound like I'm passing the buck, it's expensive for two reasons. The first is that doctors have become so rushed and incompetent these days that a lot of what you're paying for on your bill is their medical malpractice insurance. The second issue is illegal immigrants who flood emergency rooms for every bump and fever and never pay their bills.

 

 

 

 

That said, I can't imagine parents not taking their kid to the doctor.  But...my question boils down to...is it criminal if they do not?  Or just sad and stupid?  Evidently our government says that it is criminal

 

I think it's neglect. To me it would be like parents who let their child become malnourished, because they erroneously think their child needs to be on a strict diet. 

 

 

.

 

 

[Anon]

Just for argument's sake....the fact that you do not vaccinate your child/children would also be considered neglect by many....?

 

So again, being the devil's advocate here....who get's to decide what is "neglect" and what is not?     For instance, there is a well-known cult-based church in Philly that believes in faith-healing....probably the same church these folks are from, actually--and there have been several measles outbreaks down there, some children dying in those.   So....some would say not getting the measles vaccine would be neglect....?

 

So why would vaccinations be a choice, while a doctor sick visit should not be a choice?

 

Again, just asking, for consistency's sake and for sake of discussion.

[John81]

Family matters should be left with the family.

[JimsHelpmeet]

Just for argument's sake....the fact that you do not vaccinate your child/children would also be considered neglect by many....?

 

So again, being the devil's advocate here....who get's to decide what is "neglect" and what is not?     For instance, there is a well-known cult-based church in Philly that believes in faith-healing....probably the same church these folks are from, actually--and there have been several measles outbreaks down there, some children dying in those.   So....some would say not getting the measles vaccine would be neglect....?

 

So why would vaccinations be a choice, while a doctor sick visit should not be a choice?

 

Again, just asking, for consistency's sake and for sake of discussion.

That's true. Many view my choice to not vaccinate as irresponsible. Last winter, my son contracted Pertussis. I cannot tell you how many people scolded me for not having him vaxed. With that said, I got the general impression from the articles about this news story that the parents in question did not even use natural or over-the-counter remedies at home to relieve their children's symptoms. They believe all medical intervention is a sin. Their pastor said their children died because they "lacked faith". That, to me, is appalling. Not wanting to inject my son with mercury, aborted fetal tissue, and other poison differs in that if my son was running a fever, I wouldn't refuse him a children's aspirin. I would pray, certainly. I am no disbeliever in the power of prayer, but I also believe in exercising wisdom and administering tangible care, when needed. 

 

Another aspect of where it differs, in my opinion, is that I'm not opposed to parents opting out of unnecessary "preventative care" in the form of vaccinations and yearly mental health evaluations. That should be the parents' choice. I do, however, oppose not taking care of a sick child. I gather that in the case of the Schaible family, if a child's arm was cut off they would find medical care to be a sin. Their own pastor issued a statement that all medical care is a sin.

 

When it comes down to brass tacks, though, there are roughly a dozen children every year in this country who die from lack of medical care due to faith healing beliefs. Compare that to the estimated 98,000 people who die in hospitals due to medical errors and another 100-something thousand who die from fatal adverse reactions to prescription medication. That's staggering, so faith healing is clearly not enough of a problem to mandate routine medical intervention for children or enact invasive laws that take away parental privacy and authority in regards to how they see fit to care for their children.

 

In this case, third-degree murder is so out of line I can't see it as anything but a case of Christian persecution. This isn't like parents who beat children to death, because they're convinced "the devil's in them". 

[JerryNumbers]

I would like to ask a question. In the early 1900's many people had polio. This tells much about it.

 

And yes, I had the Polio vacation, & I'm very thankful I had it, & that I never had Polio. I was born in 1946. During my school years I remember a few people that had a case of Polio. Sad thing is they were the ones that never had the vaccination. I will mention 3 of them below, I do knot of a few more, plus some that did not survive their bout with polio.

 

One person i recall quite well played football, he kicked field goals, & kickoffs. his left arm was totally useless. I had a classmate that had a young sister that had it. She could hardly walk, most of the time she could walk with help only. I remember another boy that was younger than I, I've always wondered what become of him. It affected both of his legs & he wore braces much like my classmates sister. he could walk by his self after he got to about the 3rd or 4th grade.

 

 

 

Polio. Polio vaccine was licensed in the United States in 1955. During 1951-1954, an average of 16,316 paralytic polio cases and 1879 deaths from polio were reported each year (9,10). Polio incidence declined sharply following the introduction of vaccine to less than 1000 cases in 1962 and remained below 100 cases after that year. In 1994, every dollar spent to administer oral poliovirus vaccine saved $3.40 in direct medical costs and $2.74 in indirect societal costs (14). The last documented indigenous transmission of wild poliovirus in the United States occurred in 1979. Since then, reported cases have been either vaccine-associated or imported. As of 1991, polio caused by wild-type viruses has been eliminated from the Western Hemisphere (16). Enhanced use of the inactivated polio vaccine is expected to reduce the number of vaccine-associated cases, which averaged eight cases per year during 1980-1994 (17).

 

I wonder if they had not come up with the vaccination with many people taking them what would the numbers right above have looked liked? I figure the numbers would have sky rocketed.

 

I usually get a flu shot every years. The 1st one I ever had was while in the air force, they would give us one in the fall. But in the fall of 68 I left for Guam TDY for 90 days in September which turned into 120 days, that year I did not get the flu shot. After returning to my home base in January, in February I came down with a bad case of the flu, I was in the hospital for nearly a week. Since I've gotten older I get a flu shot every years.

 

Back in 2005, I believe it was, I caught Pneumonia. I just had a small case of it in one lung, it was just in a small part of the lung. yet I ran 104º plus temp. The wife had to have an ambulance to come for me. I spent nearly a week in the hospital, & rightly it was another 3 weeks before I really got to feeling better. After recovery I got a Pneumonia shot, I think your suppose to get another one every 5 years, I plan on doing so.

 

How many lives do you suppose vaccinations for different types of diseases has saved? Do you think its just plain wrong for parents to have their children vaccinate, or do you believe its a sin against God to have such vaccinations?

 

Of course, I believe it should be up to the parents. Yet they sure need to be educated on it knowing how many lives has been saved because children have been vaccinated.

 

Just as I believe going to the doctor should be up to that person or the parents.

 

As for those who totally refuse any treatment for their children, I've got mixed emotions on that, I don't have the answer. Wow, wouldn't it be difficult to watch a young child die because the parents refused to take them to get treatment?

[JimsHelpmeet]

 

I wonder if they had not come up with the vaccination with many people taking them what would the numbers right above have looked liked? I figure the numbers would have sky rocketed.

 

It's possible. Of course, vaccines are different now. They are mass produced very hastily with little clinical trial and contain some pretty scary ingredients. Doctors and pharmaceutical scientists have already admitted yearly flu shots and the Pertussis vaccine are not as reliable as they once thought, yet still encourage people to get them. At this point I doubt it's about public safety, so much as it is about the bottom line. 

 

 

 

I usually get a flu shot every years. The 1st one I ever had was while in the air force, they would give us one in the fall. But in the fall of 68 I left for Guam TDY for 90 days in September which turned into 120 days, that year I did not get the flu shot. After returning to my home base in January, in February I came down with a bad case of the flu, I was in the hospital for nearly a week. Since I've gotten older I get a flu shot every years.

 

I've been very blessed that I've only had the flu five times in my entire life - three of those times as a child. I contracted H1N1 during the pandemic, and that wasn't as hard on me as it was on others. But I do take care of myself with diet, exercise and vitamins the entire year. My husband used to get a flu shot every year until his doctor told him, with his family history of Alzheimer's Disease, yearly jabs may increase his risk of having it himself. So now he doesn't get them anymore.

 

 

 

How many lives do you suppose vaccinations for different types of diseases has saved? Do you think its just plain wrong for parents to have their children vaccinate, or do you believe its a sin against God to have such vaccinations?

 

 

 

Oh, no, I don't believe it's a sin at all. I think it should be up to the parents or adults, in cases of adults getting vaccines. I don't take issue with people who vaccinate. I take issue with people who openly state they don't believe it should be a choice. That all vaccinations should be mandatory, and that we're bad people because we don't get them. 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2013 by JimsHelpmeet

[Salyan]

There's a pneumonia shot? Wow. They really do have them for everything. The most ridiculous I've heard of is the chicken pox shot.

[Invicta]

I had a pneumonia shot a couple of years ago, recommended by my GP.  He said I would not need to get another.

 

1. Back in the 19th Century there was a sect called The Peculiar People. They did not believe in seeing a doctor or taking medicines. They believed in prayer.  At that time there was a serious diphtheria problem and they refused to take their children to the doctor or have them immunized, A number of children died as a result and some of the parents were charged with manslaughter.
2. In recent years a Medical expert wrongly claimed the MMR vaccine could cause Autism.  As a result many parents refused to allow their children to have the jab.  Early this year there was an epidemic of measles and some children died.  People are now rushing to get the jab for their children.
3. Smallpox used to be a killer but has been eradicated by vaccines.
4. Polio was common when I was a child but is rarely if ever heard of these days, since vaccines were introduced.  I had an aunt who was crippled by having polio as a child.
5. The same may be said of TB, and I am sure of many other diseases.

[John81]

There's a pneumonia shot? Wow. They really do have them for everything. The most ridiculous I've heard of is the chicken pox shot.

At one time whenever a child got the chicken pox the mothers in the area would send their children over to spend the day so they would get them, build up the immunity that comes from having them, and be done with it.

 

Now there are some saying the chicken pox vaccination might not be such a good idea because some still get the chicken pox after having the vaccination and it's typically latter in life with the chicken pox are exceedingly much more dangerous and occasionally life threatening.

[Anon]

I'm kind of glad my kids didn't have to experience chicken pox, but it remains to be seen what will happen when they are an adult.

 

My kids are vaccinated, but I did refuse the new oral rotavirus one for my youngest, and I do not let them get flu shots. I also had them spread out shots a bit for my youngest.   I also stopped one of my kids from finishing his shots due to an autoimmune urticaria he has.  He got a blood titer and was found to be immune to everything except mumps, anyway, so eventually he will be required to have the mumps shot...but thankfully they aren't pushing that yet.

 

I do think it should definitely be a parental choice.  Although sometimes I feel like those who do not vaccinate are relying on the vaccines of the other children to keep their kids healthy....i.e., if nobody else gets measles, then your unvaccinated kid won't, either, even though it's because others were vaccinated.  However, still, it's a parental choice, and a hot debate that is uncomfortable to have, usually.