Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?

[Pastor Matt]

SFIC is right, God does provide. God has provided for me plenty of times through different churches.

[Anon]

SFIC is right, God does provide. God has provided for me plenty of times through different churches.

Exactly...and if the churches don't know you exist, they won't know where to send the provision......I mean God *could* send down a sjunk of paper with a mailing address on it, but He generally doesn't work that way....

[Invicta]

AN Groves and many other missionaries did not solicit funds. That does not mean that funds were not provided by those who cared. George Müller and his friend and fellow pastor Craik, would not accept a salary. It first, they had a box with their names on it, then decided that was soliciting fuds, so removed them, their needs were still provided for..

Müller also ran his orphanage without ever asking for funds. This was known as the "Bristol Miracle". It is reported that the children sat down for breakfast with no food available and thanked God for their meal wich came just at the right time. I believe that Spurgeon ran his orphanage on similar lines.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Invicta

[John81]

Whatever the task, if God calls us to it, He will provide the means for us to do so.

Beyond that, we should not neglect to consider time. Is God calling us to a task immediately, sometime soon, a few months away or a year or more? How we respond to this is also a factor.

[Invicta]

Exactly...and if the churches don't know you exist, they won't know where to send the provision......I mean God *could* send down a sjunk of paper with a mailing address on it, but He generally doesn't work that way....

God knows their needs.

A late pastor once told us that when in Bible College, he and other students used to go "gospel trekking" during the summer in this area. They took a handcart, a supply of leaflets, tracts and bibles and went around speaking in the open air and various churches, stayng in church halls, etc.

As it was at the end or just after the war, food was still rationed and you had to have food coupons to buy supplies. One day they discovered that they were shout of 7 food coupons and prayed that God would supply them. The next morning, a man knocked on the door of the chapel where they were staying and said "I don't know why, but I feel I have to give you 7 food coupons." (The number 7 may not be the number he said, but the amount was exactly what they prayed for.)

[John81]

God knows their needs.

A late pastor once told us that when in Bible College, he and other students used to go "gospel trekking" during the summer in this area. They took a handcart, a supply of leaflets, tracts and bibles and went around speaking in the open air and various churches, stayng in church halls, etc.

As it was at the end or just after the war, food was still rationed and you had to have food coupons to buy supplies. One day they discovered that they were shout of 7 food coupons and prayed that God would supply them. The next morning, a man knocked on the door of the chapel where they were staying and said "I don't know why, but I feel I have to give you 7 food coupons." (The number 7 may not be the number he said, but the amount was exactly what they prayed for.)

There are countless examples of Christians relying upon the Lord, turning it over to God in prayer, and the Lord providing in some way. I've seen this happen in my life on many occasions.

[Pastor Matt]

The point of this is to do what God tells you to do. If God tells someone to go on deputation for two years before going on the field, then I am 100% behind that person going on deputation for two years. If God tells someone to immediately go on the mission field then I am 100% behind them going on the mission field right away.

Which one had more faith in God? They both had the same faith in God because they both obeyed Him. One is no better than the other.

[John81]

The point of this is to do what God tells you to do. If God tells someone to go on deputation for two years before going on the field, then I am 100% behind that person going on deputation for two years. If God tells someone to immediately go on the mission field then I am 100% behind them going on the mission field right away.

Which one had more faith in God? They both had the same faith in God because they both obeyed Him. One is no better than the other.

Which is why I mentioned the time aspect. If we obey God, then we are doing right. If we decide something has to be done a certain way, regardless of God's timetable, then we are second guessing God and basically saying we know better than God.

Whatever God calls us to do, how and when, that's exactly what we should do it.

[Invicta]

Do you not think that a missionary should be sent out by a church, or if small supported by several like minded churches, rather that a missionary organisation, or board?

[Pastor Matt]

Do you not think that a missionary should be sent out by a church, or if small supported by several like minded churches, rather that a missionary organisation, or board?

Yes I do, but I think that is a new thread. :)

[Anon]

The original topic was, I thought, pastors getting a salary...which is very well taught in Scripture to be truth.

[2Tim215]

All we have we get from God. God gave my father the ability to work for his living... just as He did Paul and the Apostles.

Just can't stand the fact that some people believe that God provides for those He sends, can you?

I hope this question is not directed at me? Because if it is you are ONCE AGAIN making assumptions based on no evidence concerning my faith and character and proves your bigoted arrogance concerning all who disagree with your doctrinal views. All I did was reiterate Kitagirls question and no where did I state that God does not provide. I would appreciate it if you could refrain from making wild assumptions and instead give us substantiated proof regarding your view point. If your father worked then how and where and how much time was spent working and how much time ministering to the needs of his "mission" field? You said in Africa, then where in Africa? If you have nothing to hide then these questions should easily be answered and there should be nothing wrong with sharing a testimony that can strengthen the faith of others and substantiate your claims concerning God's provision, so why the constant evasion when asked direct questions?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

This thread is not about my father. It is you who is making assumptions, not me.

I just stated a fact that my father worked to get to Africa and did not have to beg others for support.

In the Word of God, we find that Paul worked to support himself while in the missionary field. We find no evidence whatsoever of him asking others to support him. We find no Scripture that states that either he, or any other person sent to do a work for the Lord had to ask others for monetary support to get to their destinations. God provided their needs.

And as Invicta so correctly pointed out, there have been many ministers who went in faith, asking nothing. And they found that God provided for them.

Apparently God has lost the ability to provide for us in the last 150 years. He calls into the mission field, but can't provide the means without man's begging others for support. He must not be the same.

Or is it man who has changed? Man who has not the belief that God will provide anything that man asks of Him? Jesus said in Matthew 7, "Ask, and it shall be given...". Jesus also said that we have confidence that if we ask anything of the Father in His name, He hears us. Was Jesus a liar?

Maybe we just don't believe He will hear us.

by the way, my father and mother were in Libya.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Anon]

Evidently your father had a very secret job, working in Libya.

[Calvary]

This thread is not about my father. It is you who is making assumptions, not me.

I just stated a fact that my father worked to get to Africa and did not have to beg others for support.

In the Word of God, we find that Paul worked to support himself while in the missionary field. We find no evidence whatsoever of him asking others to support him. We find no Scripture that states that either he, or any other person sent to do a work for the Lord had to ask others for monetary support to get to their destinations. God provided their needs.

And as Invicta so correctly pointed out, there have been many ministers who went in faith, asking nothing. And they found that God provided for them.

Apparently God has lost the ability to provide for us in the last 150 years. He calls into the mission field, but can't provide the means without man's begging others for support. He must not be the same.

Or is it man who has changed? Man who has not the belief that God will provide anything that man asks of Him? Jesus said in Matthew 7, "Ask, and it shall be given...". Jesus also said that we have confidence that if we ask anything of the Father in His name, He hears us. Was Jesus a liar?

Maybe we just don't believe He will hear us.

by the way, my father and mother were in Libya.

You sir are in error. The Bible plainly shows Paul asking for support and expecting it not for himslef but for others as well.

Romans 15:24, Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

Not only that, he further declares, It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Then, speaking ot the Corinthians the Apostol says:

1 Corinthians 16:6, And it may be that I will abide, yea, and winter with you, that ye may bring me on my journey whithersoever I go.

Paul speaks declaratively and matter of factly that they will pay for his trip and care. Which is exactly what the phrase "bring me on my journey" means. Not only that, he expresses it to be his purpose in visiting, i.e: financially supported.

Again he says:

1 Corinthians 16:10-11, Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.
Let no man therefore despise him: but conduct him forth in peace, that he may come unto me: for I look for him with the brethren.

Here Paul places the financial burden on the church for Timothy.

Paul again says:

2 Corinthians 1:15-16, And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit; And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea.

Paul is confident that they will pay his way. Paul also says that he is coming with that in mind. Looking for financial care is one of the purposes of this trip.

Then Paul says in Titus 3:13, Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them.

The scriptures speak and you should simply admit you're in grave error. Simply because some men here and there decided to put God to the test does not make it scriptural to do so according to these men's convicitons. Paul the Apostol looked for funds from the brethren. George Muller (according to your shoddy history, did not) Either way, it is biblical to seek support for your labor in the Lord. Period. How you do so is of course entirely up to the one God calls.

Deputation or not isn't even the issue. The real issue is that the BIble clearly posits a principle that the man who seves full time in the minsitry should be cared for by the churches in all areas of his life. Travel, food and rainment.

You try to use Matthew 10 and it was utterly laughable and pathetic. You claim the no script part of the comission given there yet you do not seemt o claim the casting out of demons, the raising of the dead or the cleansing of lepers. Typical scriptural hack. It's cultic to quote snippets and build upon them out of context. Typical "house church" behaviour.

Again, the scriptures speak and you are found to be in opposition to the clear sense of the word of God.

God bless,
Calvary Edited April 6, 2012 by Calvary