Suicide and salvation?

[JerryNumbers]

Beaver traps have a jaw spread of around 7.5 inches and are generally the largest and strongest traps used(bear traps aren't really used any more), and even they won't do that. Worst that might possibly happen with those is a bruise or a bruise leading to losing a fingernail if you snapped it on. Most wouldn't even do that. The fox size doesn't even hurt on your fingers. To "near pinch the ends off" of your finger you would have to have sharp jaws on the trap. Smooth rounded jaws do not do that, and I have been pinched both intentionally and accidentally with several different size traps over the years. As far the dog that broke his leg, not saying that might not be possible, but it was most likely the result of a poorly swiveled trap, not the fault of the trap itself. I am guessing this was quite a few years ago... I use to have a dog that would get himself caught in my traps fairly regularly. He would yelp and jump but then he would sit down and I would let him out. He never seriously hurt or broke a thing. He would hold up the paw that had been caught and hop around for a couple of minutes but then he would forget about it and go about as if nothing had happened.

You have not been around the traps I have. I will stop here, if you do not believe me, that's OK!

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I believe you, Jerry.

Here is a site that shows what those traps can do. Feet sure look broke to me.

[Seth Doty]

I believe you, Jerry.

Here is a site that shows what those traps can do. Feet sure look broke to me.

Haa.. that site is pure propaganda. The picture of the coyote in a trap is realistic enough but the caption says it is being "left to die of hunger or thirst".That is pretty silly and shows their slant. The picture of the coyote foot was most likely done with a hatchet, not a trap. Even if someone knows nothing about traps just think about it logically for a moment. All the bones in that foot are not only broken but severed. The only thing holding it on is a strip of skin on one side. I could easily pull it off with my hands at that point. Now is a logical person supposed to believe that a trap would be so powerful as to sever that coyote foot almost completely an yet not take it off completely? Even if we were to allow that for the sake of the argument why would the coyote not escape? One or two tugs would do it. It isn't trap damage at all. Same thing for the photo of the dog. If you blow it up you can see the area that "looks" damaged is above where the trap has a grip. The trap only has the dog by three toes(it is a 1.5 size trap designed for smaller animals) and the toes are not damaged at all. As I said, it is all propaganda pure and simple.

If your into pictures here are a couple I took just tonight to prove the point.



This is a beaver trap. Jaw spread is 7.5 inches. Traps this size are to large to legally set on land in many states. I use it for the pictures to make a point as your unlikely to come across more powerful foothold traps in use except in alaska. As you can see it is not exactly small or weak, and it is four coiled(extra springs) which gives it extra power. In fairness it is also laminated(extra jaw thickness) which brings it back about even with a unmodified trap. Typically traps will be smaller and less powerful than this one though.



Ahhh... my fingers are being chopped off...



Oh the agony, I better chew my hand off quick.



As you can see, other than the rust stains(new trap not yet treated for field use) and a slight depression in the skin, my fingers are none the worse for it. No blood, no broken bones. Now if I was in the trap for hours pulling and jerking it would cause some local bruising and there would also be some swelling from the lack of circulation, but that is about it. That is why trappers not infrequently release smaller animals they don't want. Edited December 17, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[Standing Firm In Christ]

So your traps don't hurt your hand. But if it were true that animals were not ending up with broken bones, the government would not have passed laws to ban them in certain states.

[JerryNumbers]

Of course the traps I spoke of was made way before my birth in 1946, belonging to my mothers father. I believe he was about 85 when he died in 47, & I believe she told me until I used them they had been hanging up in the smoke house since her father turned 45 years of age.

They were round in shape, several had the double springs. They were hanging in our old smoke house, & I had to try them out in the woods behind our house.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Tell you what Seth, put your hand in that trap and jump around for several minutes pulling and twisting every which way as hard as you can trying to get out of the trap. Let me know if you have more than "a little indentation and redness."

When an animal is trapped, it is scared. It does everything it can to get out. . So imitate that animal, then get back to us.

[Seth Doty]

Tell you what Seth, put your hand in that trap and jump around for several minutes pulling and twisting every which way as hard as you can trying to get out of the trap. Let me know if you have more than "a little indentation and redness."

When an animal is trapped, it is scared. It does everything it can to get out. . So imitate that animal, then get back to us.

Been there tried that. I had heard all the "stories" too as a child and wanted to make sure the traps were humane so I did jerk on the chain and pull to imitate a trapped animal. Results are the same with slightly more redness but that is it. More to the point when you catch the animal and see his foot the next day it looks the same. No blood and no broken bones. When you skin out the foot there is usually some light bruising under the hide but that is it. That is the whole point of smooth jaws, swivels and shock springs, they work. Edited December 17, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Yeah, these "jaw traps" don't hurt animals... Right.

[Seth Doty]

Yeah, these "jaw traps" don't hurt animals... Right.

They can when improperly setup, but that is much like hunting. If you know what your doing and do it right it is reasonably humane. If you don't know what your doing, blaze away at everything and wound game it is not. Trapping is the same. If the pictures of my fingers in such a large and powerful trap don't mean anything to you then believe what you want, you will anyway. I could take countless pictures of unharmed animal feet too but I think I have demonstrated my point. I don't see any reason to argue it further.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

No, leg hold traps aren't dangerous. But according to one News Broadcast, they are.

Look up Steve Austin and tell him the traps are harmless, will ya?

Edited December 17, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[LindaR]

Here's a little "tidbit" from Dr. Henry M. Morris from Days of Praise, ( Dec 2, 2005) about Judas Iscariot:

His Own Place

by Henry Morris, Ph.D.

"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place" (Acts 1:24-25).

The last three words of this passage have profound significance. Although Judas had walked with Christ and the other apostles for three years, he was out of place there all that time. It took the traumatic events of the final week of Jesus' ministry to reveal his true character.

At death, each of us will go to his own place, whether heaven or hell. If a person has found the company of Bible-believing, Bible-living Christians uncomfortable in this life, and feels more at home with the Bible-doubting, God-ignoring majority, then his own place will surely be with them in the future life. Such a person would be more miserable in heaven than in "his own place." The tragic words of the Bible's final chapter are these: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Revelation 22:11).

An artificial profession of belief, like that of Judas, will not change one's basic character. Sooner or later, that person will be found altogether out of place. "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (2 Peter 2:22). Yet a true change of heart, through genuine faith in Christ, will change our eternal residence, as well, for then God "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Colossians 1:13).

There is, indeed, a wonderful "place" which Christ has gone to "prepare" for all those who truly desire to be with Him in His place! (John 14:2). HMM

His Own Place

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Excellent post, Linda!

That last paragraph reveals an interesting truth... "sooner or later, that person will be found out of place." The suicide has proven that person to be out of place even though that person may have made a profession of faith 10,20, 30, or even 50 years earlier. The sow that was washed still had a nature to wallow in the mud. Had an outward appearance of being clean, just as that suicide did... but proved that the outward form of cleanliness and godliness was only superficial. His true nature was not that of a changed person at all, and eventually the evil that was in his heart surfaced to reveal to all who he really served.

[JerryNumbers]

Here's a little "tidbit" from Dr. Henry M. Morris from Days of Praise, ( Dec 2, 2005) about Judas Iscariot:

His Own Place

by Henry Morris, Ph.D.

"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place" (Acts 1:24-25).

The last three words of this passage have profound significance. Although Judas had walked with Christ and the other apostles for three years, he was out of place there all that time. It took the traumatic events of the final week of Jesus' ministry to reveal his true character.

At death, each of us will go to his own place, whether heaven or hell. If a person has found the company of Bible-believing, Bible-living Christians uncomfortable in this life, and feels more at home with the Bible-doubting, God-ignoring majority, then his own place will surely be with them in the future life. Such a person would be more miserable in heaven than in "his own place." The tragic words of the Bible's final chapter are these: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Revelation 22:11).

An artificial profession of belief, like that of Judas, will not change one's basic character. Sooner or later, that person will be found altogether out of place. "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (2 Peter 2:22). Yet a true change of heart, through genuine faith in Christ, will change our eternal residence, as well, for then God "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Colossians 1:13).

There is, indeed, a wonderful "place" which Christ has gone to "prepare" for all those who truly desire to be with Him in His place! (John 14:2). HMM

His Own Place

Yes, good thoughts.

I wonder about some people, & the life they live. I know in my heart that they would in no way feel comfortable in heaven, for everything they live for contradicts what God stands for. Yet they will say I'm a Christina, & I'm going to heaven.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

It is interesting, because Judas Iscariat companied with the Apostles; ate with them, traveled with them, etc.. The Apostles did not even suspect him of being the son of perdition. We see no indication that the other Apostles suspected him of any evil doings whatsoever. He appeared to be one that loved and served the Lord the same as they.

Yet, he went to his own place at the end.

[John81]

It is interesting, because Judas Iscariat companied with the Apostles; ate with them, traveled with them, etc.. The Apostles did not even suspect him of being the son of perdition. We see no indication that the other Apostles suspected him of any evil doings whatsoever. He appeared to be one that loved and served the Lord the same as they.

Yet, he went to his own place at the end.

Sadly there are many who think they are really Christians, they try to live a Christian life, to most they appear to be a Christian yet they have never been born again in Christ. Every so often I hear or read of someone who had thought they were a true Christian for years, sometimes decades, and then they were born again in Christ and can now see that all those years they thought they were right with God they were actually lost and would have gone to hell had they died at that time.

Jesus tells us in Scripture the day will come when many will proclaim they have done this and that for Christ, these are ones who thought they were Christians but were not actually biblical Christians, and Christ will inform them that He never knew them and they will be cast away along with all other lost folks.