How strongly would you try to dissuade a 17-year old from getting an eyebrow barbell?

HappyChristian · July 27, 2011

HappyChristian:

I think Deb (who can speak for herself) was probably referring to the idea of young people on the verge of adulthood who can read the Scriptures for themselves, may have searching questions, and may be shortly having to stand on their own two feet, anyway.

Blessings.

I'm sure she was - as was the OP, since 17 year olds are on the cusp of adulthood. And I stand by my answer - if parents have been teaching children from the get-go about being obedient to scripture, then even 17 year old's would accept a no from their parents, honoring them...very few would even ask to have a brow bar put in. If a child reaches 17 without learning how to rightly divide scripture and how to pray, then it would be a case of too little, too late.

farouk · July 27, 2011

I'm sure she was - as was the OP, since 17 year olds are on the cusp of adulthood. And I stand by my answer - if parents have been teaching children from the get-go about being obedient to scripture, then even 17 year old's would accept a no from their parents, honoring them...very few would even ask to have a brow bar put in. If a child reaches 17 without learning how to rightly divide scripture and how to pray, then it would be a case of too little, too late.

HappyChristian:

Yes, well it's remarkable how many of the posters in the thread seem to have missed the Scriptures which Deb brought up, which both mention young men as well as women wearing jewelry, and also show that the Lord Himself gave jewelry.

Maybe a 17 year old would have questions after all. :unsure:

HappyChristian · July 27, 2011

Missed them? Just because they didn't quote them? The Lord gave jewelry to ISRAEL...symbolic, not literal.

The Israelites adopted several pagan practices from the Egyptians...should we follow that?

Let's also remember the scriptures (in the NT, under grace...) that teach separation from the world. Brow bars are definitely part of the dress of someone with a worldly mindset. And justification is always given, but no actual scripture (other than to say things like "it's an individual thing based on Romans 14"...which isn't talking about things like brow bars being okay, but rather pointing out the opposite...).

A 17 year old might have questions. And questions should be answered biblically. But not by using old testament references as support...

farouk · July 27, 2011

Missed them? Just because they didn't quote them? The Lord gave jewelry to ISRAEL...symbolic, not literal.

The Israelites adopted several pagan practices from the Egyptians...should we follow that?

Let's also remember the scriptures (in the NT, under grace...) that teach separation from the world. Brow bars are definitely part of the dress of someone with a worldly mindset. And justification is always given, but no actual scripture (other than to say things like "it's an individual thing based on Romans 14"...which isn't talking about things like brow bars being okay, but rather pointing out the opposite...).

A 17 year old might have questions. And questions should be answered biblically. But not by using old testament references as support...

Happy Christian:

So the Ezekiel 16 references to jewelry that the Lord gave means that jewelry was not inherently wrong in the Old Testament but became inherently wrong in the New?

(Just wondering.)

Blessings.

HappyChristian · July 27, 2011

*sigh* You are just obsessed with jewelry. That chapter is all about spiritual adultery...maybe not a good reference to use? :Bolt:

farouk · July 27, 2011

*sigh* You are just obsessed with jewelry. That chapter is all about spiritual adultery...maybe not a good reference to use?

Just trying to follow through logically some of the comments from the Scriptures.

Anyway, I thought Deb's reasoned contribution was very thoughtful and she gave Scriptural examples that young ppl might ask about.

Actually I agree about excessive jewelry being inappropriate. I just wonder whether Scripture really says that all jewelry is inappropriate, given that there are examples of jewelry in a non-critical context.

Blessings.

HappyChristian · July 27, 2011

No, I don't believe that we could scripturally say all jewelry is wrong (men wear watches, wedding rings, sometimes medical bracelets, military dog tags [my son has had to wear his since he enlisted, as do all military], but I don't think it's a stretch to say that earrings on men, brow bars on anyone, and other piercings (like naval rings, etc) go beyond simple adornment into following the philosophies of the world, which we are told not to do.

Deb2live4Christ · July 27, 2011

Answering for myself :hide: I was using the Ezekiel passage to show there are things in the Bible that would cause a young adult to question.

I wonder myself, if God in His Word inspired Ezekiel to write as he did about how the LORD God cleaned up and dressed His people even if some believe it to be symbolic; the words used under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit being articles we say "no-no" to because they are worldly or unseparated from the world; ...why then would they(jewelry) be sin or wrong? Remember thou what God allows the devil our foe always taints it somehow...

Regardless of how He "decked" them their hearts revealed their true nature Ezekiel 16:17 "Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,"

That does not sound symbolic to me nor was the calf symbolic that was made by Aaron and worshipped by the people...

But my point remains the same...as children get older putting an understanding behind the "no" could be helpful in that it teaches them how to think and reason the Word that they are to obey throughout their grown up life away from parents...

Please understand that I would not allow brow piercing, but in all honsety I would not know how to refute it through the Word of God...except through principles pulled from Scripture...the principle of separation being one...the principle of glorifying God in your body and in your spirit which are God's...

Alls I know is that... Romans 5:20-21 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

My mom who was not Christian at the time I was growing up would say..."If God wanted it, he would have had you born with it..." I know that is faulty in that as,Job 1:21 "And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb," You know she wouldn't let me be clothesless...

:twocents: isn't much, but I am always growing in my understanding and I haven't arrived...may I continue to have a teachable spirit.

HappyChristian · July 27, 2011

Answering for myself I was using the Ezekiel passage to show there are things in the Bible that would cause a young adult to question.

I wonder myself, if God in His Word inspired Ezekiel to write as he did about how the LORD God cleaned up and dressed His people even if some believe it to be symbolic; the words used under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit being articles we say "no-no" to because they are worldly or unseparated from the world; ...why then would they(jewelry) be sin or wrong? Remember thou what God allows the devil our foe always taints it somehow...

Regardless of how He "decked" them their hearts revealed their true nature Ezekiel 16:17 "Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,"

That does not sound symbolic to me nor was the calf symbolic that was made by Aaron and worshipped by the people...
I was speaking about symbolic whoredom. God was speaking of spiritual whoredoms here. Spiritual adultery.
But my point remains the same...as children get older putting an understanding behind the "no" could be helpful in that it teaches them how to think and reason the Word that they are to obey throughout their grown up life away from parents...
Again, I maintain that said understanding should be taught throughout their lives. Waiting until they are 17 would actually be too late, apart from the mercy of God.
Please understand that I would not allow brow piercing, but in all honsety I would not know how to refute it through the Word of God...except through principles pulled from Scripture...the principle of separation being one...the principle of glorifying God in your body and in your spirit which are God's...
And we would be in 100% agreement here!!
Alls I know is that... Romans 5:20-21 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

My mom who was not Christian at the time I was growing up would say..."If God wanted it, he would have had you born with it..." I know that is faulty in that as,Job 1:21 "And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb," You know she wouldn't let me be clothesless...

isn't much, but I am always growing in my understanding and I haven't arrived...may I continue to have a teachable spirit.

I actually agree with much of what you posted, Deb. I was just pointing out that teaching scriptural understanding is a life-long thing. Many parents get saved when their children are older, and so at 17 there would be questions that otherwise wouldn't be raised.

Do we honestly believe that, if children are raised in subjection to God's Word, being taught how to follow Him, that there would be an issue with something like this (if said children had gotten saved and had the Holy Spirit residing within)? I know that some children might want to revolt, but, actually, if they do, and parents really examined things, don't you think there would be somewhere along the line that said children were allowed to get a taste of the world? It does impact, and "evil communications corrupt good manners."

Deb2live4Christ · July 27, 2011

I have to agree the issue would not be an issue in a 17 year old's life if he were surrounded by ones of like faith...

I agree too that as the child grows so must the teaching to understand the reasons for which things are done and not done...that was what I meant by saying as children get older...starting from the beginning as much as could be understood and progressing as the age progresses...I am not sure if I am saying it clearly :huh: ...

This seems to be a what if thread...say for instance a young man came into the youth group unsaved and having a brow piercing...your teen see and starts asking questions...not necessarily to have one but because it was introduced by way of the new kid in youth group coming because some one invited him...

To move wisely through the Word of God is prudent...

I would be careful not to get offended or be put on the defensive but to respond without undue criticism through the scriptures we know...in giving an answer to the subject on hand...

John81 · July 27, 2011

Perhaps so, Deb, but each parent has the right to say no. With no reasons given. IF the child has been reared to honor their parents, the no would suffice. And if the parents have been teaching their children to be obedient to scripture, and separate from the world, a barbell for the eyebrow wouldn't even be requested.

Saying no is not always in anger. And, again, it is usually a result of having taught standards all along anyway.

Amen!
Even non-Christian parents who raise their children to respect them, know their views and hold them to high standards find that many issues other parents face with their teens never come upon them.

Sometimes a no is enough and if they have been raised consistently they will understand the no without explanation.

And, like you say, for those raised right from the beginning, such typically won't even come up.

John81 · July 27, 2011

Missed them? Just because they didn't quote them? The Lord gave jewelry to ISRAEL...symbolic, not literal.

The Israelites adopted several pagan practices from the Egyptians...should we follow that?

Let's also remember the scriptures (in the NT, under grace...) that teach separation from the world. Brow bars are definitely part of the dress of someone with a worldly mindset. And justification is always given, but no actual scripture (other than to say things like "it's an individual thing based on Romans 14"...which isn't talking about things like brow bars being okay, but rather pointing out the opposite...).

A 17 year old might have questions. And questions should be answered biblically. But not by using old testament references as support...

Absolutely! And these facts are so often missed or dismissed.

Several New Testament verses have been put forth dealing with this and they seem to have been "missed" while focus has been put upon Old Testament verses not dealing with Christian living.

Deb2live4Christ · July 27, 2011

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

I would be careful not to dismiss the Old Testament...even Jesus taught principles from it and even quoted it a time or two...we can learn how to live our Christain life through the OT...

We learn what faith is by ...Hebrews 11:1-40 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Be careful not that you do not dismiss the very words written and followed by Jesus Himself...and remember principles by which to live the Christian life are found in the OT and the NT...many a good preahers have made sermons from the OT....

John81 · July 28, 2011

We never dismiss the Old Testament but it has to be viewed in light of the New Testament. The New Covenant holds Christians to a much higher standard than did the old.

Christian living must have a firm foundation in the New Testament.

1John2:15-17 · July 28, 2011

(forgot to hit quote, so I copied this as my reference):

farouk, on 26 July 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:

So, right: tell me, please, exactly what the Bible says about, for example, earrings, so that we can known exactly what you mean by saying that they are unscriptural, in your view.

(reply from John) This is your tactic in each thread of this sort. You obfuscate the issue, move away from the actual topic, attempt to turn the whole issue in another direction and put words in the mouths of those promoting the Word and sound Christian living.
Either you wish to truly live for Christ, following Him fully, striving to stay far from sin or even the hint of sin, or you are not.

For a while during this thread I got the "impression" that part of this thread was trying to defend a barbell piercing. :smilie_loco:4

A little leaven ruins the whole loaf.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

These verses ring in my head frequently, whether I encounter or see something that is wrong, or when I do something that is wrong.
I am also reminded of something my pastor says, "what part of "be ye separate" don't you understand? :bang:

Whether it is a barbell piercing, pink hair, purple hair, punk hair, tatoos, CCM, it is all worldly, and I will not be convinced if anyone tries to tell me that these are "ways" to win the young to The Lord. You must have a good testimony. You cannot look nor act like "the world." We are called to be separate, to be different. God hasn't changed, rather people must change.

You want to win the youth to the Lord, bring them to camp, bring them to VBS....they will be exposed to peers that are more right for them. Have your own church kids witness to them. Also, the adults must have a good testimony as well, they must be the same in and out of church. Parents need to be parents, not a child's best friend. It also helps when the parents are in church and their Bibles as well.

Our church is having VBS this week, and I've read there have been a few saved already in the first 2 nights. Last week they had senior camp. 2 weeks before that they had junior camp. Get the kids away from the video games, TV, hanging out at the malls, and get them to church.

I'll get off my soapbox now....