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[John81]

John81:

I guess I assumed that your views were significant among the Independent Baptists with whom you meet. (With me, attending an independent Bible based church, though it's not called baptist, even though we do baptise by immersion.)

I don't recall stating a view on sideburns.

Our current home church isn't designated Baptist either. It's an independent conservative church (not a modern church, this church was formed as an independent church in the 1800s) with a pastor who attended Baptist seminary. We are in this church because all the Baptist churches in the area have either closed their doors or took liberal, watery turns.

[farouk]

I don't recall stating a view on sideburns.

Our current home church isn't designated Baptist either. It's an independent conservative church (not a modern church, this church was formed as an independent church in the 1800s) with a pastor who attended Baptist seminary. We are in this church because all the Baptist churches in the area have either closed their doors or took liberal, watery turns.

It's more than just heels that have become issues in many churches. There are issues with flip-flops, sandals, sneakers, cowboy boots, etc.

There are issues regarding dresses and skirts, legnths, slits, slips, pantyhose, etc. There is the issue of pants which sometimes extends inot types. There are issues regarding cullottes.

Use of guitars, drums and other musical instruments.

What type of songs are acceptable.

How long sermons should be.

What Bible version.

Make up.

Hair length and styles for men and women. Even issues with beards, sideburns and other aspects of men's facial hair.

Shorts, for both male and female.

Women teachers, women on church boards, even women preachers.

Movies, video games, board games, etc.

All of these and so many more are divisive issues among Baptists and Christians in general. Part of the reason is failure to properly address them. Of course for some, it's simply a matter of them doing whatever they want regardless.

As many have noted, it's increasingly difficult to find a good church today. Even if the church is Baptist, even if it calls itself IFB, they may each be all over the board on these issues here as well as many others.

John81:

Well, I'm just glad that each local church is autonomous.

[amblivion]

It's more than just heels that have become issues in many churches. There are issues with flip-flops, sandals, sneakers, cowboy boots, etc.

There are issues regarding dresses and skirts, legnths, slits, slips, pantyhose, etc. There is the issue of pants which sometimes extends inot types. There are issues regarding cullottes.

Use of guitars, drums and other musical instruments.

What type of songs are acceptable.

How long sermons should be.

What Bible version.

Make up.

Hair length and styles for men and women. Even issues with beards, sideburns and other aspects of men's facial hair.

Shorts, for both male and female.

Women teachers, women on church boards, even women preachers.

Movies, video games, board games, etc.

All of these and so many more are divisive issues among Baptists and Christians in general. Part of the reason is failure to properly address them. Of course for some, it's simply a matter of them doing whatever they want regardless.

As many have noted, it's increasingly difficult to find a good church today. Even if the church is Baptist, even if it calls itself IFB, they may each be all over the board on these issues here as well as many others.

This is why I thank God I follow Christ and not man made religion.

[JerryNumbers]

Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Ro 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Why would a born again believer conform to and walk as the people of this world, we are to be transformed, to be a new creature, be a peculiar people, we are to have overcome the world, and its ways if we are to follow Jesus closely.

[farouk]

Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Ro 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Why would a born again believer conform to and walk as the people of this world, we are to be transformed, to be a new creature, be a peculiar people, we are to have overcome the world, and its ways if we are to follow Jesus closely.

J:

Excellent verses, and I strongly agree with the conclusion.

I do think that amblivion has a point, too; some of the do's and don't that ppl try to insist on in very conservative churches are somewhat arbitrary.

[John81]

J:

Excellent verses, and I strongly agree with the conclusion.

I do think that amblivion has a point, too; some of the do's and don't that ppl try to insist on in very conservative churches are somewhat arbitrary.

Which ones are arbitrary and which ones have solid biblical backing? That's the question we need to answer.

Also, along with the verses put forth, we need to remember that in Christ we are to put off our old man and put on Christ, willingly giving up our own way for what is best in Christ.

[farouk]

Which ones are arbitrary and which ones have solid biblical backing? That's the question we need to answer.

Also, along with the verses put forth, we need to remember that in Christ we are to put off our old man and put on Christ, willingly giving up our own way for what is best in Christ.

John81:

With respect, some of the stuff you mentioned some posts back seemed rather arbitrary. Fact is, from one local church to another and from one country to another (I'm not even in the US), people will apply Romans 14 to their own different situations.

But I agree about the implications of the believer's position in Christ.

[Salyan]

I couldn't tell you that, but what I can tell you is that I have not found a pair yet that matches my suits.

Now there is quite the picture! :nuts:

[HappyChristian]

One thing's for sure: if we rejected everything that Christians of old rejected, we'd not be on the internet....because Christians of old didn't always have uniform standards, either. I don't base my decisions on what Christians used to do, but on what God says in His Word. The commands, principles and patterns contained therein are enough for me.

I've never worn 5" heels, although in my younger years I did wear 3 inch. For the way they shaped my leg? No way! Actually, studies have shown that there are some feet that benefit from heels - I don't think 5" are beneficial, though! That would curve the foot a bit too far, IMO.

I think we need to be careful of just saying that heels are bad (let's face it: we might say 5" is too high, while another says 3", and another says any heel!!). If a Christian lady is sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit and is in her Bible as she ought to be, the Lord will show her whether or not it's right. If she is under her father, or if she is married, the man who is her head will help her in that decision.

Church attendance ought not be a fashion show, so if a woman is wearing heels to draw attention to herself, that is wrong. We all know that. But we cannot read the heart, so we need to be careful not to issue a blanket statement that all who wear 5" heels have the wrong motives.

edited to add: I missed a lot of the other posts - don't know how I did that! FTR - our church has drums in the orchestra. Some of the women wear makeup Some of the men have beards. And we play board games....but anyone who's ever been to our church knows very well that standards are preached.

[JerryNumbers]

John, We, that is many of today's Christians, love the world and everything it offers, so it seems, and are very friendly with it and its ways.

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


And, I believe she stated because of the stand taken that we do not follow Christ as she does, that we only follow a man made religion Quite an accusation from a young woman.


I've always heard from health care providers that wearing high heels is one of the main causes for back troubles in women, and knowing this many of them, including Christian women, keeps on wearing them. When we get older it can be tough enough without doing something that will add to the pains in old age.

And there is no doubt what high heels does for women, its easy to check out if one is interested.

[farouk]

Jerry:

You raise some good points. We need to pursue fellowship with the Lord, who bought us, not with the world.

Also, amblivion had a point about the arbitrariness of some of the things which were mentioned as supposedly wrong or inherently controversial.

Also Happy Christian has a point I guess similar to amblivion's.

[HappyChristian]

John, We, that is many of today's Christians, love the world and everything it offers, so it seems, and are very friendly with it and its ways.

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


And, I believe she stated because of the stand taken that we do not follow Christ as she does, that we only follow a man made religion Quite an accusation from a young woman.


I've always heard from health care providers that wearing high heels is one of the main causes for back troubles in women, and knowing this many of them, including Christian women, keeps on wearing them. When we get older it can be tough enough without doing something that will add to the pains in old age.

And there is no doubt what high heels does for women, its easy to check out if one is interested.

So, amblivion is an adulterous because she doesn't follow man-made religion, or an enemy of God? Hmmm, somehow I think it's the other way around (not meaning anyone here...I mean because she follows Christ and not man)! And, just to note: she didn't "rebuke" anyone, nor did she intimate that anyone else didn't follow Christ in any way. She simply stated that she was glad she follows Christ...because a good number of those things on John's list are MANMADE requirements, with nothing in scripture to specifically state what's what. Man, oh man - you were in an uproar in another post because people supposedly didn't read what you wrote, but read into it what they wanted. And that is exactly what you did with her post. Good going.

There was no stand taken in the post she commented on - just a list. A list. Not scripture. A list. Yes, of things that have changed over the years, and things that are divisive in many churches. And they are divisive for one big reason: scripture is silent on exactly HOW much of that is to be done, but along come people who say "It must be done like this or everyone who doesn't is in sin."


~~~~~~~~

It's interesting - I think we can read what we want out there. When I wore heels, there was documentation that it was good for certain feet (feet with no arch, especially). I suppose some doctors would argue that, and that's fine. I would venture to say that (as I noted) 5" would be dangerous. But I'm not a foot doc. And I'm just as glad to wear my flats anymore...

[farouk]

Thanks, Happy Christian.

I'm wondering if this thread has now run its course... :unsure:

[John81]

Most of us have experienced or known of churches where...

A man with a beard is looked down upon

A woman without a head covering is met at the door and provided with one

A man without a suit coat is met at the door and provided with one

A woman with make-up receives snide looks and turned backs

A man who looks like he just got off work is scorned

A new person at a church mentions playing cards and is verbally assualted

A person in the church says they like some modern hymns and they are accused of being worldly


Many of these can be reversed and accurate as well. Shouldn't we be in much more agreement in these areas? It can be a real shock visiting Baptist churches and getting hit with just how different they can be in some areas. You walk into one Baptist church wearing a suit and you are the only one doing so yet you walk into another not wearing a suit and everyone else is...worse of all, those in the church make sure you know you are not dressed as they are and work to make you feel uncomfortable.

Some churches if a man doesn't have a beard they can't be in leadership while in other churches a man having a beard excludes him from being in leadership.

One would think that in all these areas along these lines where there is so much division and "bad publicity", we could come to some kind of consensus at least on most of these for the sake of our witness.