Romans 8:29-30 exposition

[anime4christ]

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. - Romans 8:29-30

For whom he did foreknow,

God foreknew a group of people. The text does not say "For whom he knew would do this or that", but "whom he did foreknow". That means, all other people were not foreknown. Now, God does know all people and what they will do, for He is omniscient, therefore the meaning of "foreknow" in this text does not mean merely knowing on an intellectual level. There is another instance in which God knows some people and doesn't know others which then sheds light on the meaning of "foreknow" in the context of this verse. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." - Matthew 7:22-23. When God talks about knowing and not knowing people, it means in an intimate knowledge. Notice that Jesus says "I never knew you", meaning that those who were not known at the end of time, were never known by God. On the other hand, those whom He did know, were known before time began, according to Romans 8:29.

he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

All those whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. There is no modifier on the group of the foreknown, therefore all are included in His predestination to be conformed to the image of His Son.

that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The purpose of the conformity of the foreknown to the image of His Son is so that the Son may be the firstborn among many brethren. He (the Son) is the first, and all those conformed to His image will be His brethren after Him. The phrase "many brethren" suggests the validity of the theory that the group of the foreknown is a limited group, leaving a group not foreknown.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:

Those whom he predestined (all of the foreknown), he also called. This marks the difference between the foreknown and the others. This calling is manifested in the following result which is not manifested in those He does not know:

and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Herein is the result of the calling. Those whom He called are justified and glorified. While God calls all, it is evident that there is a special calling for the foreknown, for all who are foreknown are predestined, and all who are predestined are called, and all who are called are justified and ultimately glorified. We know that not all people are justified and glorified (Romans 9:21), so as the beginning of the text suggests, there is a group that is not foreknown, and never will be known (Matthew 7:23), while the the foreknown were and will be always known by God.

[John81]

What do you think of Spurgeon's, and others, view that some are predestined (Jeremiah, John the Baptist, etc.) while there are also those who will be born again from hearing the "general call"?

[HappyChristian]

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom he justified, these He also glorified.

We should start by asking ourselves who are the persons in Romans 8:29 that are foreknown? Verse 28 states that it is those who love God, i.e. Christians. To what then are these people predestined to? Salvation? Faith? No, they are predestined to be “conformed to the image of His Son.” In other words, everyone that loves God has been predestined to be made like Jesus: “So what is God saying about predestination? All those who love God are predestined. God has a previously thought-out plan for them. And that plan is to make them like Jesus.” (Walter C. Kaiser, Jr.; Peter H. Davids; F.F. Bruce; Manfred T. Brauch; Hard Sayings of the Bible (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1996), p. 559.) This only confirms our interpretation of Ephesians 1:3-12.

In short, the Biblical doctrine of predestination can be summed up as this: God has predestined that all who believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior will be adopted as God’s children, receive an eternal inheritance and be made like Jesus. Neither Ephesians 1:3-12 nor Roman 8:29-30 teach that God has chosen undonditionally who will be saved and who will be damned. That is a concept that has been read into the scriptures, not taken out of it. Predestination has nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with the rewards that God has eternally planned to give all those who are saved.

Since the only two passages which use the word predestination in reference to persons do not teach the doctrine of unconditional election, then it is extremely doubtful that other passages where the word is absent are teaching it. Indeed this doctrine completely contradicts the whole tenor of the scriptures. The Bible is quite clear that God truly desires that all would repent and be saved (Acts 17:30, I Timothy 2:4, II Peter 3:9). God does not desire that the wicked should perish but that he should repent and live (Ezekiel 33:11). God continually stretches out His hands to rebellious people (Isaiah 65:2) and whosoever wills may freely partake of the water of life (Revelation 22:17). Praise God!

http://www.mission.org/jesuspeople/predestination.htm

[anime4christ]

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom he justified, these He also glorified.

We should start by asking ourselves who are the persons in Romans 8:29 that are foreknown? Verse 28 states that it is those who love God, i.e. Christians. To what then are these people predestined to? Salvation? Faith? No, they are predestined to be “conformed to the image of His Son.” In other words, everyone that loves God has been predestined to be made like Jesus: “So what is God saying about predestination? All those who love God are predestined. God has a previously thought-out plan for them. And that plan is to make them like Jesus.” (Walter C. Kaiser, Jr.; Peter H. Davids; F.F. Bruce; Manfred T. Brauch; Hard Sayings of the Bible (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1996), p. 559.) This only confirms our interpretation of Ephesians 1:3-12.

I find this to be lacking to call it an exposition.

[HappyChristian]

I find this to be lacking to call it an exposition.

Of course you would. :icon_mrgreen:

[anime4christ]

What do you think of Spurgeon's, and others, view that some are predestined (Jeremiah, John the Baptist, etc.) while there are also those who will be born again from hearing the "general call"?

Yes, there will be people who will be born again who hear the general call, because all hear the general call. However, those who hear the general call and are saved are those who get the effectual call as well. See my post in the Piper and Christian Hedonism thread.

[anime4christ]

Of course you would.

Not just because I disagree with it, but because it lacks in content and actual exposition.

[anime4christ]

Can anyone find something wrong with the exposition I posted? Where am I dishonest with the actual given text?

[HappyChristian]

Read the whole article, anime. And it won't matter to you - you will believe that it is lacking, no matter what.

The thing is, scripture must dovetail with scripture. And the Calvinist view of predestination does not do so, without forcing. Christ died for all. Salvation is open to all. Not in two separate calls (that isn't even anywhere in scripture - that's a man-thought idea). Mankind chooses to accept or reject. God, before the founding of the world, foreordained that all who turn to Him will be conformed to the image of His Son. That doesn't mean He chose the ones who will do so.

[heartstrings]

Read the whole article, anime. And it won't matter to you - you will believe that it is lacking, no matter what.

The thing is, scripture must dovetail with scripture. And the Calvinist view of predestination does not do so, without forcing. Christ died for all. Salvation is open to all. Not in two separate calls (that isn't even anywhere in scripture - that's a man-thought idea). Mankind chooses to accept or reject. God, before the founding of the world, foreordained that all who turn to Him will be conformed to the image of His Son. That doesn't mean He chose the ones who will do so.

:thumb:

[Invicta]

It seems that some have torn pages out of their bible.

I believe my bible plainly says, Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
I believe what it says and I thank Him for it.

From another site.

In was reading the book of Jude in my devotions and came across this verse: Jude 4.

" For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

From this I see that there are some who are ordained to condemnation.

Thoughts?

There are a number similar scriptures.

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart to stop him setting the people free?

Isaiah 6:9 ¶ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


When a scripture is repasted we should take special note of it. This scripture is quoted more than once in the New Testament

Matt 13: 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Is that clear? Jesus spoke in parables so the unbelievers would not be converted.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Some were ordained to condemnation as you quote from Jude, and some were ordained to eternal life.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

That is perfectly clear. As many as = everyone who

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

[John81]

Read the whole article, anime. And it won't matter to you - you will believe that it is lacking, no matter what.

The thing is, scripture must dovetail with scripture. And the Calvinist view of predestination does not do so, without forcing. Christ died for all. Salvation is open to all. Not in two separate calls (that isn't even anywhere in scripture - that's a man-thought idea). Mankind chooses to accept or reject. God, before the founding of the world, foreordained that all who turn to Him will be conformed to the image of His Son. That doesn't mean He chose the ones who will do so.

This would be a much better post if the beginning, or stand alone paragraph, were left out. It never helps an argument, or presentation of ones position, to begin with a negative statement about how such will be received. Present the position and pray the Lord will use it according to His will.

[anime4christ]

Read the whole article, anime. And it won't matter to you - you will believe that it is lacking, no matter what.

The thing is, scripture must dovetail with scripture. And the Calvinist view of predestination does not do so, without forcing. Christ died for all. Salvation is open to all. Not in two separate calls (that isn't even anywhere in scripture - that's a man-thought idea). Mankind chooses to accept or reject. God, before the founding of the world, foreordained that all who turn to Him will be conformed to the image of His Son. That doesn't mean He chose the ones who will do so.

I did read the whole article, however it's not in expository format as I asked for. Not to mention a very small portion is dedicated to the verses I quoted. The point is you can't expose something in a passage that isn't there, so the author of that article doesn't even try. I'm not going to play intellectual games. If someone wants to make their point, they will have to do so in an intellectually honest manner. Nobody has taken up this challenge so far though.

[anime4christ]

Not in two separate calls (that isn't even anywhere in scripture - that's a man-thought idea).

Does God know everyone? If He does, why does He tell some that He never knew them? If "know" therefore means different things in different contexts, why does "call" always mean the same thing wherever the word is found?

He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. - Psalm 147:4

Is God calling stars to repentance and faith? Or is this yet another different kind of call? Not all calls in the Bible are the same. Why only make the distinction where it's convenient instead of making the distinction every time the Bible uses the word in a different context?

[Crushmaster]

"28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

'Whom'? 'These'? There's a distinction. Who are 'these'? Those who love God. Those who are called according to His purpose (verse 28). These, He foreknew, He predestined, He called, He justified, He glorified. Are all justified? Are all glorified?

No. And no one here would disagree with that.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.