ABC's 20/20 Special on Independent, Fundamental Baptists

[Wilchbla]

Whether she was 15 and was seducing the man she is still innocent. The man was a married man and regardless of how the girl acted she is still a child and he is an adult.

They're both guilty. A 15 girl can be just as guilty as anyone. Anyone who watches the news or has any experience in the real world knows how predatorial teen girls can be. The only difference is that a 15 year old girl man not understand the consequences of her actions but she sure can know her actions are wrong. One reason teens are out of control is because they get the "I'm innocent" pass.

[Wilchbla]

We had a registered sex offender in our church at one time. This is a small town in a very rural county so most already knew who he was when he came to our church. Our pastor met with him several times and believed he was born again and was sincere in his desire to live for God and serve Him.

Our pastor explained to the man that for his safety, as well as others, he would not be allowed to work in any aspect of the children's ministries. Our pastor also explained this to all those who did work in the children's ministries, as well as to the board members and a few others. The man wasn't "kept under watch" or escorted everywhere in the church, but folks were aware of the safety limitations which had been put into place.

To that man's credit, during his entire time at our church (he has since moved to another State), he never complained about the limitations (though he did express sorrow and regret that such were necessary), he abided by the limitations, he never attempted to see how close he could get to the line of those limitations. He did serve the church faithfully in other capacities and was faithful in church attendance.

Sounds like to me that your pastor handled this well. He didn't totally humiliate the man by announcing it to everyone in the church yet made it known to those who were the leaders of the church. To me this is a delicate situation. Saying nothing to anyone is reckless but over doing it and blathering to everyone about his past could drive the man out of church altogether and forever.

[John81]

They're both guilty. A 15 girl can be just as guilty as anyone. Anyone who watches the news or has any experience in the real world knows how predatorial teen girls can be. The only difference is that a 15 year old girl man not understand the consequences of her actions but she sure can know her actions are wrong. One reason teens are out of control is because they get the "I'm innocent" pass.

That's true. While the man would hold the greater share of blame, a 15 year old girl who attempted to seduce a man would not be innocent. For the most part, 15 year old girls who engage in such things are not of the innocent sort, but rather are already sexually active and experienced in such matters. This absolutely does not absolve the man of the primary responsbility to flee from such, especially if he is aware of the girls age, yet the girl is not blameless in such a situation.

[Annie]

That's true. While the man would hold the greater share of blame, a 15 year old girl who attempted to seduce a man would not be innocent. For the most part, 15 year old girls who engage in such things are not of the innocent sort, but rather are already sexually active and experienced in such matters. This absolutely does not absolve the man of the primary responsbility to flee from such, especially if he is aware of the girls age, yet the girl is not blameless in such a situation.

Maybe...I think this is a case, though, in which the girl was seduced by the man, and fell into a "consensual" relationship with him. As you said, each party is responsible only for his/her own sin...the man for playing on a young girl's innocence and emotions, and taking advantage of her immature judgment...and the girl for committing sexual acts that she knew were wrong with a married man.

Of course, I think it goes without saying that in the case of rape/assault, the party being assaulted is not at all responsible for that crime. The blame is solely the rapist's. But, protest some people, the girl was dressed immodestly! Okay, let's say the girl was dressed immodestly (which in most cases is subjective). Is she at all guilty for the rape? No, because she did not commit the act of rape. But if she is guilty of immodesty, then that is the sin which she needs to confess. She should not blame herself for the rape. I think people (whether intentionally or unintentionally) lay more blame for a rape on a woman who is not dressed modestly than one who is dressed modestly. But (and I think this distinction is important) the blame for the act of rape is upon the rapist alone. My husband and other men I know see immodest women all the time, almost everywhere they go, and don't choose to rape them.

[heartstrings]

That's true. While the man would hold the greater share of blame, a 15 year old girl who attempted to seduce a man would not be innocent. For the most part, 15 year old girls who engage in such things are not of the innocent sort, but rather are already sexually active and experienced in such matters. This absolutely does not absolve the man of the primary responsbility to flee from such, especially if he is aware of the girls age, yet the girl is not blameless in such a situation.

I don't understand; whay are they this way?
Some folks that we play music with have a young daughter, I would say 15 or 16, and the last couple of times I've seen her she acted every flirty toward me and wanted to hug me...putting her whole chest against mine. I'm thinking...that's an ungodly way to hug someone.......something just ain't right here. But why? I'm a middle aged man. She won't be hugging me anymore.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Proverbs 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways.
27For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit.
28She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increaseth the transgressors among men.

[HappyChristian]

I'd have to strongly disagree that, if she were seducing the man, that she would still be innocent. In the eyes of the law, the married man would be guilty because of her age. But, truth to tell, girls are "older" in the ways of the world now than they were even when I was a teen (and believe me, we knew what was what...and that was almost 40 years ago).

This girl was 15 (or 16 by some accounts). The age of consent varies from state to state, but the average is 16 (14 in Arkansas! ). In this sex-saturated society in which we now live, kids are growing up being taught via tv, music, and even home and school (yes, even in Christian schools) that sex is cool, the way to go, okay, etc.

I agree that the lion's share of the blame falls on the man, because he is an adult. But again, something tells me that she wasn't the innocent victim she's portraying. Even if she was only 15/16. As heart pointed out, teens know how to seduce....and Wilchbla hit the nail on the head.

[Annie]

I'd have to strongly disagree that, if she were seducing the man, that she would still be innocent. In the eyes of the law, the married man would be guilty because of her age. But, truth to tell, girls are "older" in the ways of the world now than they were even when I was a teen (and believe me, we knew what was what...and that was almost 40 years ago).

This girl was 15 (or 16 by some accounts). The age of consent varies from state to state, but the average is 16 (14 in Arkansas! ). In this sex-saturated society in which we now live, kids are growing up being taught via tv, music, and even home and school (yes, even in Christian schools) that sex is cool, the way to go, okay, etc.

I agree that the lion's share of the blame falls on the man, because he is an adult. But again, something tells me that she wasn't the innocent victim she's portraying. Even if she was only 15/16. As heart pointed out, teens know how to seduce....and Wilchbla hit the nail on the head.

I agree that if a girl is trying to seduce a man sexually, she shares in the blame for the sexual act. (I don't know if you were addressing my post here; just in case you are, I'm clarifying what I said.) I don't know much about the situation (with Tina Anderson and Ernie Willis), but from what I've read on both sides, I don't think that this was an instance of Tina seducing Ernie. I think it was an instance of Ernie seducing Tina, and Tina being led astray by an older man who took advantage of her. Am I saying she was not at all to blame? Only God knows who was to blame for what in this situation. All I was saying (in general) is that a woman (even if she dresses immodestly) is not to blame for assault/rape. Edited April 15, 2011 by Annie

[Pastor Matt]

Here is a couple of links that are of interest.

Fallacies of Logic: An Analysis of ABC’s “20/20” View of IFB

http://www.drchuckphelps.com/

[speerjp1]

Here is a couple of links that are of interest.

Fallacies of Logic: An Analysis of ABC’s “20/20” View of IFB

http://www.drchuckphelps.com/

Very good analysis by Bro. Surrett!! :thumb:

[TheBibleSender]

Okay so by innocent I was not implying she had no part in it. I am just saying that I have seen many girls in my life act this way. Many who never had a Father figure around or were the victims of some form of abuse. Not wanting to blame things on society but many girls are taught that is the only way to get attention. Sadly many men are not getting the attention they need from their wives so when something like this happens where some girls gives them attention they are wanting and vice versa this type of thing happens. Let this be a lesson to all. Father's are you giving your daughters the attention they need? Spouses are you giving your partners the attention they need? God bless. :)

[heartstrings]

Yet another example of “special pleading” was seen in a few short excerpts from sermons
presumed (but not documented) to be quotations from pastors of IFB churches. There appeared to be
three different pastors whose words were heard, without the contexts of those words being presented.
While some of those statements seemed improper, they were not substantiated by Scripture, and were
evidently the subjective opinions of those individual pastors. While multitudes of sermons by IFB
preachers which are designed to build families, instruct parents in child-rearing, and help young people
to avoid sexual disasters could have been cited to give a fairer representation of the IFB churches, ABC
chose to omit that significant information.

...some of those statements seemed improper,

My kids heard the phrase "oral sex" for the first time, from an IFB pulpit.
Our pastor told us that blacks were meant to be slaves told jokes about blacks from the pulpit.
A visiting pastor also poked fun at blacks from the pulpit.
Another pastor, who didn't want his wife to get pregnant, divulged to us, from the pulpit, the gory details of his wife's miscarriage
There's more but I think that's enough.

they were not substantiated by Scripture, and were
evidently the subjective opinions of those individual pastors

I hear stuff like this all the time. How can one call themselves "preaching the word of God" when what one is saying is opinion and not substantiated or backed up with scripture?

Ecclesiastes 10:1
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: [so doth] a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom [and] honour.

[Annie]

My kids heard the phrase "oral sex" for the first time, from an IFB pulpit.
Our pastor told us that blacks were meant to be slaves told jokes about blacks from the pulpit.
A visiting pastor also poked fun at blacks from the pulpit.
Another pastor, who didn't want his wife to get pregnant, divulged to us, from the pulpit, the gory details of his wife's miscarriage
There's more but I think that's enough.


I hear stuff like this all the time. How can one call themselves "preaching the word of God" when what one is saying is opinion and not substantiated or backed up with scripture?

Ecclesiastes 10:1
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: [so doth] a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom [and] honour.

Good post, heartstrings. I am so thankful I've never been a member of a church with such an indiscreet pastor!

[John81]

Okay so by innocent I was not implying she had no part in it. I am just saying that I have seen many girls in my life act this way. Many who never had a Father figure around or were the victims of some form of abuse. Not wanting to blame things on society but many girls are taught that is the only way to get attention. Sadly many men are not getting the attention they need from their wives so when something like this happens where some girls gives them attention they are wanting and vice versa this type of thing happens. Let this be a lesson to all. Father's are you giving your daughters the attention they need? Spouses are you giving your partners the attention they need? God bless.

None of us are above temptation in this area and some are more at risk than others in this area. We ALWAYS need to be on guard.

A good pastor in this area back in the 80s found himself counseling a woman with marital problems. It became obvious that marriage was heading to divorce and she kept coming to him for counsel. As can so easily happen in such situations, they began to have feelings for one another. This pastor shared that with our pastor and our pastor told him he should immediately stop counseling that woman, have someone else direct her to another person for counseling and to cut off all non-public contact with her. Well, he didn't heed our pastors words. The woman and her husband divorced, that pastor and her began a relationship in secret...but being a small town it didn't stay secret long. He was fired from his pastors job. The former pastor and the woman moved away, got married and the last I heard were still together and he was working in a secular job.

If we don't keep the whole armour of God on, if we don't keep guard over our heart, if we don't take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, then we have opened a door for the world, the flesh and the devil to hit us hard.

[mattd]

I'd have to strongly disagree that, if she were seducing the man, that she would still be innocent. In the eyes of the law, the married man would be guilty because of her age. But, truth to tell, girls are "older" in the ways of the world now than they were even when I was a teen (and believe me, we knew what was what...and that was almost 40 years ago).

This girl was 15 (or 16 by some accounts). The age of consent varies from state to state, but the average is 16 (14 in Arkansas! ). In this sex-saturated society in which we now live, kids are growing up being taught via tv, music, and even home and school (yes, even in Christian schools) that sex is cool, the way to go, okay, etc.

I agree that the lion's share of the blame falls on the man, because he is an adult. But again, something tells me that she wasn't the innocent victim she's portraying. Even if she was only 15/16. As heart pointed out, teens know how to seduce....and Wilchbla hit the nail on the head.

I watched the video and, though I think it is a representation of only one IFB church (and obviously only one, I might add), I also think they gave the pastor in question plenty of opportunity to explain the situation. He chose not to do so. I also note that the one pastor who cooperated with the interview did an excellent job of explaining that one IFB church does not represent any other IFB church. He also took the proper approach to the whole situation, in my opinion. Kudos to him.

Where did we get the idea that this girl suduced this man? How many of us know a 10, 11, 12 year old girl that is just that -- a little girl. They still hug adults, they are open and loving and very naive. When is the age that this disappears? I'm sure everyone would agree that it is a different age for different girls. There's no reason to believe that a 16 year old can't still be innocent -- especially if she has lived in a "sheltered" lifestyle. It's also reasonable to believe that this girl would be inhibited by a man who holds a position of power (yes, an usher is a position which sets one apart from the rest of the congregation) and would not neccesarily scream when he approaches her.

No one else has said it but I am going to. This sounds like rape. It doesn't mean the church had anything to do with it, or that the pastor should bear any blame (though I think the public shaming is disgusting). But it reaks of rape and the guilty man should face the appropriate consequences. She could have been a lewd seductress, but it appears that she was a little girl. Shame on him. Edited April 17, 2011 by mattd

[Anon]

I heard about it but didn't have the stomach to watch it. I know a lot of bad things go on in IFB but I did not like how they made us look like a cult group. Of course that should not be a surprise to any of us...I'm sure the media was thrilled to have enough stories to fill an hour (or whatever) of a tv show.

Hopefully they will cover the Muslims next.