Dispensationalism

[Seth Doty]

OTOH Dispensationalist heresies include:
claiming the Gospel according to Matthew is for the Jews & therefore for the millennium & not the church;
claiming the church is an interpolation in God's plans for Israel;
focusing on national Israel to the prejudice of the Gospel & indigenous Christians in the Moslem countries;
supporting 'aliya' of unbelieving, Christ-rejecting Jews, & the resultant injustice suffered by Arab Palestinian Christians & Moslems;
studying Scripture with an imposed 'system;'
treating prophecy as post 'rapture' so the Christians have a 'grandstand view' of tribulation, rather than taking the encouragement of Scripture as we suffer;
encouraging Jews not to convert in this dispensation;
teaching the slaughter of 2/3 of Israeli Jews;

Lets look at these accusations one by one.

"claiming the Gospel according to Matthew is for the Jews & therefore for the millennium & not the church;" (Not generally a true statement except concerning hyperdispensationalists which are a great minority and at odds with most other dispensationalists.)

"claiming the church is an interpolation in God's plans for Israel;" (True. Guilty as charged.)

"focusing on national Israel to the prejudice of the Gospel & indigenous Christians in the Moslem countries;"(If by this rather vague accusation you mean most dispensationalists generally support the right of the Jewish people to exist as a nation in their own God given land you would be correct.)

supporting 'aliya' of unbelieving, Christ-rejecting Jews, & the resultant injustice suffered by Arab Palestinian Christians & Moslems; (This would seem to be the same as the previous statement only re-worded. )

studying Scripture with an imposed 'system;' (Not really true any more than you study scripture with an "imposed system". The fact of the matter is that dispensationalists like myself start with the scriptures and believe dispensationalism fits them. Scriptures come first and any "system" is held to dogmatically only to the extent that it can be seen in the scriptures.)

treating prophecy as post 'rapture' so the Christians have a 'grandstand view' of tribulation, rather than taking the encouragement of Scripture as we suffer;(Nothing says Christians can't go through tribulation, certainly Christians throughout history have suffered much. Yes dispensationalists do tend to believe that the scriptures show Christians will be raptured out of the world prior to the"great tribulation".

encouraging Jews not to convert in this dispensation;(Totally and utterly false. Never heard anyone suggest or imply such a thing. If anyone did, they would definitely be way outside "normal" dispensationalist views. Even hyper-dipensationalists don't tend to hold to a position like that.)

teaching the slaughter of 2/3 of Israeli Jews;(Yes, during the great trib, but it isn't exactly an encouragement for someone to "slaughter of 2/3 of Israeli Jews". It is a belief that scripture teaches that that is going to happen during the great trib under the anti-christs persecution. Even if you disagree I am not sure exactly why such a position would rise to the level of "heresy".) Edited April 23, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[John81]

encouraging Jews not to convert in this dispensation;(Totally and utterly false. Never heard anyone suggest or imply such a thing. If anyone did, they would definitely be way outside "normal" dispensationalist views. Even hyper-dipensationalists don't tend to hold to a position like that.)

In recent years John Hagee has promoted this idea and many have been influenced by his teachings. In yoking with Jews and promoting extreme pro-Israeli positions, he has "determined" Jews don't need to become Christians because they will be saved anyway when Christ returns.

[Seth Doty]

In recent years John Hagee has promoted this idea and many have been influenced by his teachings. In yoking with Jews and promoting extreme pro-Israeli positions, he has "determined" Jews don't need to become Christians because they will be saved anyway when Christ returns.

Well I don't know a whole lot about his views, but a quick search seems to show that he is pentecostalish, obviously highly ecumenical, preaches something of a "health and wealth" gospel etc. I also see he discourages attempts to "convert" Jews at his assorted pro-jewish events. However he still seems to reject the idea presented here that Jews don't need to "convert in this dispensation".

A couple links:
Denies endorsing "dual covenant"

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/15756/evangelicals-seeing-the-error-of-replacement-theology

Denies that his book was teaching that Jesus did not come as the Messiah


Now with that said, even though it does not appear that he believes "Jews do not need to get saved in this dispensation" it does appear he is wrong on many other issues and frequently suffers from a bad case of "foot in mouth" syndrome where he says a series of foolish things and then denies he meant what it initially sounded like he was saying.

[JerryNumbers]

John Hagee is one of those if you listen to once in a while, and don't happen to catch certain topics he preaches on, he will come off as pretty good. And he divorce his 1st wife and married a younger woman.

He should not be in a pulpit, and I would not advise anyone to listen to him.

[John81]

John Hagee is one of those if you listen to once in a while, and don't happen to catch certain topics he preaches on, he will come off as pretty good. And he divorce his 1st wife and married a younger woman.

He should not be in a pulpit, and I would not advise anyone to listen to him.

You are right Jerry. At a casual listen he can sound like a biblical preacher. This is one of the reasons so many get caught up with him. By the time the other stuff starts soaking in, they already trust this guy and just go with it.

As well, Hagee was more conservative in earlier years and his positions have changed some as he's become more popular and again as he has worked to become Mr. Pro-Israel by being very careful to no longer say anything that would upset Jewish leaders.

I don't think his problem is so much that he puts his foot in his mouth often and then has to try and cover for that, I think oftentimes he's simply double-minded, trying to play both sides of the fence, and when the day is done he can point to quotes of his that will satisfy both sides while downplaying or ignoring the other quotes.

[Invicta]

studying Scripture with an imposed 'system;' (Not really true any more than you study scripture with an "imposed system". The fact of the matter is that dispensationalists like myself start with the scriptures and believe dispensationalism fits them. Scriptures come first and any "system" is held to dogmatically only to the extent that it can be seen in the scriptures.)

The truth is that Dispensaationalism was an imposed system by J N Darby on his Brethren movement and up to the end of the 19th century, was widely considered to be a heresy outside that movement.

treating prophecy as post 'rapture' so the Christians have a 'grandstand view' of tribulation, rather than taking the encouragement of Scripture as we suffer;(Nothing says Christians can't go through tribulation, certainly Christians throughout history have suffered much. Yes dispensationalists do tend to believe that the scriptures show Christians will be raptured out of the world prior to the"great tribulation".
even though there is no prophecy supporting that.

[Covenanter]

Thanks, S-D for your reply.

Another disp heresy is the teaching that the temple of Ezekiel 40- is yet future, so that a physical temple will be built & animal sacrifices for sin will be offered by a Levitical priesthood.

Eze 43:18 ¶ And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These [are] the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.

[Seth Doty]

Thanks, S-D for your reply.

Another disp heresy is the teaching that the temple of Ezekiel 40- is yet future, so that a physical temple will be built & animal sacrifices for sin will be offered by a Levitical priesthood.

Close, but slightly off. The sacrifices during the millennial kingdom are well established by scripture, however it isn't "for sin" per se, it is looking back to Christs sacrifice in the same way they looked forward to it in the OT. If you wish to discuss the last 12 chapters of book of Ezekiel we can do that in another thread. It is truly a wonder to me that any Christian can read the book of Zechariah or the last twelve chapters of Ezekiel and think that it is all fulfilled. It seems so obvious that it is not and much of the prophecy is so extremely clear I have difficulty imagining how so many people trip up so badly on it. It feels like showing messianic prophecy to unconverted jews sometimes. No matter how obvious, they say they cannot see it and deny that it is obvious. Edited April 24, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[John81]

Why would we need to have animal sacrifices to look back to the sacrifice of Christ when that is what the Lord's Supper was established for?

[Seth Doty]

Why would we need to have animal sacrifices to look back to the sacrifice of Christ when that is what the Lord's Supper was established for?

Because it is a post church era and different rules apply. The Lords supper is for the church. The sacrifices are instituted for the Jewish nation that has turned to God and the gentile nations that Christ is ruling with "a rod of iron". It isn't that present day Christians will be offering sacrifices or sinning at all. All present day Christians will have glorified bodies. The apostles will be sitting "upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." etc.

A few assorted prophetic passages dealing with the millennial kingdom to look at carefully in no particular order.

"Zechariah 14:16-21 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts."

"Jeremiah 23:5-8 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land."

"Jeremiah 33:14-18 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually."

"Ezekiel 34:22-31 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD."

"Ezekiel 37:15-28 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

"Malachi 3:2-5 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts."


There are other verses that show that the levitical priesthood will not pass away as well. Take this passage for example:

"Numbers 25:10-13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel."

And then there is this passage that I think is particularly applicable to certain modern day Christians who are under the mistaken impression that God is through with Israel as a chosen nation and the Levites as priests.

"Jeremiah 33:19-26 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them."

I think God makes his position toward Israel extremely clear. If someone can read that and still think that Gods covenant with the nation of Israel is over and done with for ever I am sure nothing I could say would have any affect. That passage is so clear God might as well have said: "read my lips, Israel is not the church, and I am not through with them". lol

[Wilchbla]

claiming the Gospel according to Matthew is for the Jews & therefore for the millennium & not the church;
claiming the church is an interpolation in God's plans for Israel;
focusing on national Israel to the prejudice of the Gospel & indigenous Christians in the Moslem countries;
supporting 'aliya' of unbelieving, Christ-rejecting Jews, & the resultant injustice suffered by Arab Palestinian Christians & Moslems;
encouraging Jews not to convert in this dispensation;
teaching the slaughter of 2/3 of Israeli Jews;

Are you from Europe?

Do you see the pattern in your claims above?

Antisemitism is at the heart of ,I would guess, 90% of the biblical heresies since 70 AD.

[HappyChristian]

Good posts, Seth. :thumb:

[Brother Rick]

Good posts, Seth. I appreciate you standing up on this, I'll try to help a little.

For anyone out there that is wondering, the biggest difference between Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology is the treatment of Israel. Covenant Theology must roll an old man in the desert and take the dear, sweet promises of God away from him by violent and unmerciful exegesis to make their system work.

Genesis 13:14-17, “And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15) For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16) And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17) Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.”
Gen 17:6-8, “And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8) And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

The way they rob Abraham is by failing to recognize the difference between the promise of the seed and the promise of the land. God promises Abraham that of his seed all nations would be blessed – the fulfillment of that promise is Jesus Christ. The Bible says that spiritually we are of the “seed of Abraham” (Romans 4).

And here you thought the only reason we had the kids sing “Father Abraham” was to wear them out before the Bible lesson!

But there’s more to the promise than that. There’s the land that is supposed to be an everlasting possession of the children of Abraham. So the question is: is that promise for us or for the nation of Israel?

This question is at the very heart of Covenant Theology, because if the church fulfills all the promises to Abraham then there is no need for a future Millennium, and perhaps, just maybe, the 1,000 years are to be spiritualized. That would mean all those wonderful things that we read about in the Old Testament for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and his kids (including Daniel 9:24) are not really for Israel – they’re for us. And even though Abraham THOUGHT that God was giving him a promise that his biological children would have a special piece of property for all eternity… he was wrong.

Was he?

Romans 9:1-6, “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Paul clearly explains in this passage that there are two Israels. One is spiritual Israel (saved Christians) and the other is national Israel. So we know God’s plan for spiritual Israel, but what about the other one?

It’s all in Romans 11.

“1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,”

Paul says God hasn’t “cast away” his people. He’s speaking in the context of verse 1 – ethnic, national Israel. Covenant Theology would respond by saying, “Of course, Jews can still get saved!” But that’s not what Paul’s talking about here.

“7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.”

Whenever you run into a passage that talks about promises to Israel, Covenant Theology will tell you it’s talking about spiritual Israel. We see here in verse 7 that Paul is talking about one Israel not getting what they were seeking, and the other Israel (the election, in this case) receiving it. The Israel that doesn’t get it is “blinded.”

“25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

This passage explains it all. Covenant Theology will tell you the “all Israel shall be saved” in verse 26 is talking about spiritual Israel (us), and the “covenant unto them” is talking about Christ’s taking away our sins. They stop there, ignoring the very next verse in which the Israel in verse 26 and the “them” in verse 27 are identified as being an enemy of the Gospel! Saved people are not enemies of the Gospel!

What God is saying is that there is a promise to the ethnic nation of Israel that they will all be saved one day. This is the whole point of the Tribulation, Second Advent, and Millennium. During the Tribulation, Israel will be taken through the fire and come out the other side a saved nation. They will call upon and receive their Messiah. The Millennium will follow that, at which time the nation of Israel will receive the land promised to Abraham, thousands of years ago.

Jer. 30:7, “Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.”

Joel 2:26-32, “And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27) And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”

Edited April 25, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

Are you from Europe?
Do you see the pattern in your claims above?
Antisemitism is at the heart of ,I would guess, 90% of the biblical heresies since 70 AD.

I'm English & therefore I have antisemitism in my DNA.

God's wrath against the generation that rejected his Messiah was finished in AD 70. Since then the Jews have not been a "special case." The Gospel was freely proclaimed to them by Christ & the Apostles. Many thousands welcomed the Gospel & believed in Jesus Christ. Many thousands more followed their leaders in rejecting him. Was Jesus antisemitic in prophesying the destruction & days of vengeance? Was Paul antisemitic when he declared the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost? Was John antisemitic when he wrote against the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan?

Down the ages, Jews who believed in Jesus Christ have been rejected by the community, so that a vast number of Christians of Abrahamic descent have been disowned & after a generation or two that descent is forgotten as it is also without significance.

The persecution of Jews down the millennia is horrendous. It is a result of the establishment of magisterial Christianity rather than Gospel Christianity. Elders have responsibility to care for the church & preach the Gospel. They have no responsibility for unbelievers, whether Jew or Gentile, except to preach Christ. Once the magisterial church claimed secular responsibility they considered they had to deal with those who would not submit to their authority. Baptists & Jews were particular targets for persecution.

You cannot blame covenant theology for persecution, though I am sure you can find covenant theologians who did persecute. e.g. Calvin & Luther. I understand the Pilgrim Fathers & their descendants had problems sorting out their responsibilities. They wanted freedom to worship God as they believed was right, but had difficulty understanding that unbelievers (including their children) also wanted freedom. How should they co-exist with Indians, immigrants from RC countries, Jews & (horror of horror) baptists?

Are the European - Ashkenazi Jews - descendants of Abraham or are they descendants of a central European empire that converted to Judaism, to avoid being absorbed by Islam, Orthodox or Hindu? Are they ethnically distinct from Sephardic Jews who look Semitic & are likely to be of Abrahamic descent? I do not know, nor is it of Gospel significance - they are members of all nations & are welcomed by the Gospel.

Where heresy comes in I don't know. Elders can excommunicate & warn against troublemakers, but persecution is not in our Gospel remit. 2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

[Covenanter]

This passage explains it all. Covenant Theology will tell you the “all Israel shall be saved” in verse 26 is talking about spiritual Israel (us), and the “covenant unto them” is talking about Christ’s taking away our sins. They stop there, ignoring the very next verse in which the Israel in verse 26 and the “them” in verse 27 are identified as being an enemy of the Gospel! Saved people are not enemies of the Gospel!

Unbelieving Israel were certainly enemies of the Gospel at that time. When Paul arrived in Jerusalem for the last time the Jews turned against him. Soon after, James was thrown off the temple pinnacle. None of this negated God's promises to Abraham & his descendants. The Gospel was preached until the church, seeing the warning signs, fled the city & was taken out of the way.


What God is saying is that there is a promise to the ethnic nation of Israel that they will all be saved one day. This is the whole point of the Tribulation, Second Advent, and Millennium. During the Tribulation, Israel will be taken through the fire and come out the other side a saved nation. They will call upon and receive their Messiah. The Millennium will follow that, at which time the nation of Israel will receive the land promised to Abraham, thousands of years ago.
Consider this glorious promise that they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever:

Eze 37:24 ¶ And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Starting with the last verse "heathen" is Heb. 1471 gowy & does not imply what we understand as "heathen." Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation1471, and all the nations1471 of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Do you understand that as a promise of the millennium, when Israel is in the promised land, in peace, for ever?

John doesn't see that millennium - his millennium is populated increasingly by sinners ready to rally to Satan's leadership for a final assault on the beloved city. Fire from heaven ends their rebellion, the last judgement follows, & only then a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Then that glorious promise of Ezekiel is fulfilled when the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

God's promise to Abraham in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed will be gloriously fulfilled. Hebrews tells us that his was not an earthly hope. Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This is the whole point of the Tribulation, Second Advent, and Millennium. During the Tribulation, Israel will be taken through the fire and come out the other side a saved nation.

You accuse me (& covenant theology) of antisemitism. I believe Jews are saved by the Gospel. You have a focus on getting national Israel into the promised land - as many as possible, encouraging aliya, believing that 2/3 of them will be slaughtered during the future tribulation. And you think that is fulfilling the promise to Abraham!

No. Those of the generation who rejected Christ suffered. The true believers, citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem, were delivered. Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.

That happened in AD 70. Why should God plan a further slaughter of Jews, Jews who had nothing to do with the rejection & crucifixion of Jesus Christ, having got them safely back into the promised land?