Question...what happened to Adam's sin?

[Guest]

Yet OT & OC saints had a true saving relationship with God that made them righteous in God's sight, & fit for his presence.

I would like to understand how they got past the veil in heaven...the one that could not be crossed until Christ rent it?

[JerryNumbers]

Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Both Adam and Eve heard the promise of the coming Savior. Yes, they were saved just like us, by faith, in fact that is the only way one can be saved, they looked forward and believed, we look back and believe.

[heartstrings]

Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Both Adam and Eve heard the promise of the coming Savior. Yes, they were saved just like us, by faith, in fact that is the only way one can be saved, they looked forward and believed, we look back and believe.

:amen:

[Brother Rick]

I don't think you are properly defining "remission" as the bible uses it. Some examples:

"Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins"

"Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

"Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

"Hebrews 10:14-20 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"




Hebrews chapters 10-11 should make that clear. They did it by faith in what was to come. If it were merely a formula of do X, offer this or that sacrifice and your automatically forgiven in the OT for this or that sin then the adulterous woman in Proverbs 7:14 would perhaps have had a point. Of course she didn't though because the sacrifice wasn't what brought forgiveness, the hearts repentance was. True believers in the OT would understand that. That is why apparently, when you look at psalm 51:16, it seems that David did not even offer a sacrifice for his sin after his adultery with bathsheba. He knew quite well sacrifice wasn't anything in and of itself. You can also see in Christ parable of the pharisee and the publicans prayers that repentance not works was the key issue. Although that parable is recorded in the NT it is still speaking of the state of affairs under the old covenant.

Seth,

Good points. As far as the definition of remission goes, it's forgiveness. God forgives us just like He did the Old Testament saints, but it goes a step further in the New Testament by taking the sins away in redemption. Obviously, we get both.

I also agree with you that repentance and the heart was the main concern in the Old Testament. In Isaiah it speaks of a man offering a sacrifice without his heart being in it and it was like killing a dog. While the Jews were in captivity they couldn't offer sacrifices.

Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Both Adam and Eve heard the promise of the coming Savior. Yes, they were saved just like us, by faith, in fact that is the only way one can be saved, they looked forward and believed, we look back and believe.

Jerry, yes, I agree that they both had the promise of a coming Saviour. There's still a lot of things that are left hanging out there though that just don't add up.

[Guest]

Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Both Adam and Eve heard the promise of the coming Savior. Yes, they were saved just like us, by faith, in fact that is the only way one can be saved, they looked forward and believed, we look back and believe.

Saved, yes. Heaven (bosom of Abraham), yes. Holy of Holies, no...not until Christ's sacrifice by His blood allowed them into the presence of God the Father.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Colossians 1:26-27
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Hebrews 6:18-20
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

[heartstrings]

I'm going to substitute a word to make a point and am not correcting the Bible.......


1 In the beginning was the Jesus and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.

2 Jesus was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by Jesus; and without Jesus was not any thing made that was made.

4 In Jesus was life; and the life was the light of men. *** "I am the light of the World"

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.

9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 Jesus was in the world, and the world was made by Jesus, and the world knew Jesus not.

11 Jesus came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received Jesus, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

The Bible says that Jesus was in the beginning, it says Jesus "was the light of men" , it also says "as many as received him",,,the "Word" gave he "power to become the "sons of God" It says "even to them that beleive on His name" and it says that men began to "call upon the name of the Lord" way back in Genesis 4 The Bible says that Jesus was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (how is that possible? I don't knwo but the Bible says it) The Bible also says that "without faith it is impossible to please God". Abel had the faith, Noah and Enoch had it too, so did Abraham, Isaac ,Jacob and a host of others way back in the Old Testament. They were all saved by grace through faith. Simple childlike faith.

Edited March 17, 2011 by heartstrings

[Brother Rick]

Look at verses 6 and 7. John the Baptist introduced Jesus to Israel, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!" Though it was prophesied in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, the blood atonement of the Messiah was a mystery and a foreign concept to the Jews before John showed up to tell them, and they still didn't get it until after Calvary. The seed they were looking forward to was one to bruise the serpent's head (Second Advent), not provide atonement for their sins (First Advent). They wanted the Millennial Kingdom, that's why the first thing the apostles asked Jesus in Acts was when He would bring the kingdom in. The reason the Jews rejected Christ was because they wanted the millennial blessings without the national repentance.

Saved by faith in God, like Noah and Abraham? Good argument.

Saved by obedience from the heart, as is taught in Leviticus and Isaiah? Good argument.

Saved by looking forward to the cross like we look back to it? I haven't seen it yet, sorry.

[heartstrings]

Look at verses 6 and 7. John the Baptist introduced Jesus to Israel, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!" Though it was prophesied in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, the blood atonement of the Messiah was a mystery and a foreign concept to the Jews before John showed up to tell them, and they still didn't get it until after Calvary. The seed they were looking forward to was one to bruise the serpent's head (Second Advent), not provide atonement for their sins (First Advent). They wanted the Millennial Kingdom, that's why the first thing the apostles asked Jesus in Acts was when He would bring the kingdom in. The reason the Jews rejected Christ was because they wanted the millennial blessings without the national repentance.

Saved by faith in God, like Noah and Abraham? Good argument.

Saved by obedience from the heart, as is taught in Leviticus and Isaiah? Good argument.

Saved by looking forward to the cross like we look back to it? I haven't seen it yet, sorry.

Would you agree that this individual got saved?

Mark 5:18And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.
19Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee. 20And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

So how did he get saved, if he didn't know anything about the cross....
Did Jesus' disciple even know about the cross at this point?
The morning I got saved, I didn't even know that salvation was only through the blood.....does that mean I didn't get in?
I'll tell you what I did do...I repented of my sin beleived on the son of God and called on His name out loud from the very depths of my being, fully believing that Jesus was right there listening. and in that split second of doing so and without realizing it, I acknowledeged that God exists, He is my only hope, He is alive.....and that He got that way by dying and being resurrected.

When Adam and Eve sinned, God brought coats of skins...something evidently had to die for that to happen....a picture of the sacrifice to come. He also verbally profesied that Jesus would bruise the head of the Serpent and thereby bruise His own heel. In the beginning was the Word, He was the Life and the Light of men way back in the beginning in Genesis. Jesus said I am the way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me. Abraham, Noah, Enoch...all communed with God , how in the world could they have "come to the Father" if they didn't have "the Word". whio was "slain from the foiundation of the World" My friend and none of us understand it all, even the cross. All that is expected of us is simple childlike faith. But "no man" has or ever will get to God without Jesus.

[Brother Rick]

Absolutely that man in Mark was saved by faith. We see over and over again that people are saved by faith before Calvary, but until Jesus showed up that faith was in believing something God said - not faith in Jesus. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. What did he believe? In the immediate context of that passage we see he believed that God was going to keep his promise to make of him a great nation. It had nothing to do with a future Messiah dying for sins.

When you were saved, didn't you know that Jesus died on the cross for your sins? I was only six years old when I was saved, and I didn't know what "blood atonement" meant, but I knew Jesus died for me. Looking back to the cross is knowing that Jesus died for you, it involved faith in the blood atonement of Christ, whether you understand the terminology or not. Looking forward to the cross would have to be the same thing and would require the same form of evangelism, neither of which we see in the Old Testament. Prophesy and mystery that the common man didn’t understand notwithstanding.

I agree that no one goes to the Father outside of Jesus. That's why Old Testament saints had to wait in Paradise before they could go to Heaven, and when they did go to Heaven they went there with Jesus after His work on Calvary was finished.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[JerryNumbers]

Rick, of course those in the Old Testament times did not know all details, yet they knew the promise of the coming Savior, you pointed out some of the Old Testament verses dealing with this, yet the 1st promise came during Adam and Eve's days.

Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

And as far as that goes, there's be a few details we lack information on, we all have run into that many times.

So you can't see it? There is only one way to be saved, and one way only, the gate is strait and narrow, and it goes though Jesus. No one, not even Old Testament characters can go to the Father except by grace through faith in Jesus, it says no man, and that is exactly what it means, not even Old Testament characters.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

As already pointed out, the blood of animals never could saved no one, only Jesus, and its by grace though faith. the blood of animals only pointed to the Savior, and if the Savior had never been sacrificed on the cross, those before the cross would have been left unsaved.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

If it is not possible for the blood of animals to take away sin, the there is only one way to the Father according to the Scriptures

The only hope of man has always been in the cross of Christ, and it still is.

I understand well there be many that refuse to accept this, they invent different ways for people to get saved in different time periods. I say invent, for the bible teaches only one way to the Father, that is faith in the cross of Christ.

[Brother Rick]

All this disagreeing lately is starting to get to me, so I thought I'd say something that we all agree with:

"Joel Olsteen is a false prophet and has an annoying mullet!"

[Seth Doty]

Absolutely that man in Mark was saved by faith. We see over and over again that people are saved by faith before Calvary, but until Jesus showed up that faith was in believing something God said - not faith in Jesus. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. What did he believe? In the immediate context of that passage we see he believed that God was going to keep his promise to make of him a great nation. It had nothing to do with a future Messiah dying for sins.

When you were saved, didn't you know that Jesus died on the cross for your sins? I was only six years old when I was saved, and I didn't know what "blood atonement" meant, but I knew Jesus died for me. Looking back to the cross is knowing that Jesus died for you, it involved faith in the blood atonement of Christ, whether you understand the terminology or not. Looking forward to the cross would have to be the same thing and would require the same form of evangelism, neither of which we see in the Old Testament. Prophesy and mystery that the common man didn’t understand notwithstanding.

I agree that no one goes to the Father outside of Jesus. That's why Old Testament saints had to wait in Paradise before they could go to Heaven, and when they did go to Heaven they went there with Jesus after His work on Calvary was finished.

I would agree that a person trusting in what God said because they believe God and he said it is the key element at any time in any dispensation. Why do Christians believe on Jesus and trust him for salvation? Because God said it. Do I think everyone in the OT that will be in heaven had a excellent understanding of Christs future substitutionary death? I doubt it. Still, I do indeed think quite a few of them did. Abraham certainly did, as did David and doubtless many of the prophets. They were not clueless and many answers could be and were found by those closest to God. Personally, I suspect they looked toward the messiah in the same way we look toward the return of Christ with likely similar degrees of accuracy. Some likely had a pretty good grasp of what was going to happen and how it was going to happen while others may have been a bit confused about that but still saved through faith in God. Romans 1:12-16 makes it clear people are judged based on the light that they have accepted or rejected.

[Invicta]

I would like to understand how they got past the veil in heaven...the one that could not be crossed until Christ rent it?

I thought the veil was in the temple, not in heaven.

[Seth Doty]

I thought the veil was in the temple, not in heaven.

Well, the curtain was in the earthly tabernacle, and in "Solomons" temple, and those were both built to heavenly specs. That the temple pattern was divinely given can be seen in 1 Chronicles 28:11-19 and that the earthly tabernacle was a copy of one in heaven can be seen in Hebrews 8:5 and Hebrews 9:22-23. It is generally understood that when the scripture says: Mark 15:38 "And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." that this was done by God as a picture that the way into the Holy of Holies was now open through the blood of Christ since everything in the temple was a picture anyway.