Tools for the married woman

[DennisD]

I think mostly it seems there was just a misunderstanding but we quickly got defensive instead of asking for clarification.

[John81]

Again, the point has nothing to do with what another thought, but with the idea that doing "whatever works" is okay or a good way to go about things.

Even when there are options as to how we go about something, there are still parameters we are to operate in. Therefore, "whatever works" doesnt' apply biblically because even if there is some liberty in an area, there are still boundaries within that liberty.

[Annie]

Thanks for the analysis, DennisD. My concern is not with Happy and John's disagreement, necessarily, or even about household chores (since I know that pretty much all of us agree about that, anyway)...It has more to do with taking remarks out of context and contradicting them out of hand. John did not use quotation marks responsibly, IMO. Just think if I would have lifted one statement out of your post above, taken it in a way that you did not intend, and then proceeded to contradict it, directly after you posted it. Not only would that action be frustrating to you (since you took the time to type out the whole post to inform us what exactly you meant by that statement), but it would OBfuscate and hinder the entire discussion, necessitating clarifications that would not have been needed if I hadn't taken your remark out of context. Do you see what I mean? John should have (and I did ask him to do this...and he finally did do it) clarified instead of contradicting in the first place. Then, all of this extra junk would have been avoided. He could have said something like, "As long as 'whatever works' for our families in the household area does not go against God's Word, we are free to do it. Unfortunately, there are those in the world who have a 'whatever works' attitude, and completely disregard God's Word." Or something like that.

Perhaps Happy was wrong to get defensive. You're right, I didn't read their exchange carefully, because that's not what concerned me. I can understand, though, what "stirred up" any anger on her part. Not that her reaction was right (again, I don't know), but I'm sure that wiser words would have elicited a different response from her, and would have helped the discussion to continue without misunderstanding and frustration.

EDIT: This really is the last thing I'll say about this, unless someone has a direct question for me. I don't like "calling people out," and, although this is not what I intended to do, I know that this is how it is coming across. I'm a passionate advocate of good, clean, responsible discussion, and this one point (derailing a discussion by taking remarks out of context) is one of my pet peeves. So, having made this point, I'll bow out now.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Annie

[HappyChristian]

Annie, I would suggest re-reading this whole disagreement we've had and you will see that the thing John did was right away thrown back at him from the get go.

John makes a statement which yes is in KOB's post but is something MANY people use as a "guide". So, John points this out by quoting (using quotation marks to emphasize somewhat) and that we shouldn't be using that mentality but the Bible as our guide. To be fair, Happy I think was right when she said KOB did not say anything about not using scripture but not sure he said TO use scripture either.

Next, Happy post quotes John and says this (quoting John so must be talking AT him right?)


To me, this is Happy doing to John what she was telling him later on...not to do. To me (and it might not have been meant this way), Happy was telling him (John) needs to stick with what God says about marriage. Am I wrong? Could be, but I'm not wrong that it was perceived this way by me (it's my opinion, so can't be wrong in this instance).

That is why John says this:



Happy retorts but she made the mistake of quoting John's post before so in essence, she was wrong to do so if she wanted to talk of the premise of the OP's post. It wasn't OBvious that Happy's comments weren't aimed at John, not at all.



Below, Happy says his quotations are pretty specific...well, if those are pretty specific than what is post quoting John's entire post? Very very specific? Although, I do agree with Happy that it's a mountain out of a mole hill...I do not agree you chastise someone of something they might have done...by using the same tactic. Happy talks about impressions in this below quote and that's what I saw earlier with the quoting of John's post...the impression that Happy was speaking directly to John and saying he was not using the Word of God as his guide when stating we should use scripture as our guide to a happy, healthy marriage.



In light of all this, I feel John used quotes not to single out KOB (entirely) but to show that his quote was a general consensus of the public we should do "whatever works". If others didn't read it that way, I would suggest next time we ask for clarification from the person doing the quoting and not using the same tactic against said person.

Actually, Dennis, I didn't make a mistake in quoting John's post. I intended to do that. The mistake I made was in not putting my statement about KOB first. The first paragraph was not aimed at John. It was aimed at the general premise of the OP and those who think it's a sin for a man to do anything around the house because it's all women's work and God says so. And I have to agree with Annie here:

It has more to do with taking remarks out of context and contradicting them out of hand. John did not use quotation marks responsibly, IMO. Just think if I would have lifted one statement out of your post above, taken it in a way that you did not intend, and then proceeded to contradict it, directly after you posted it. Not only would that action be frustrating to you (since you took the time to type out the whole post to inform us what exactly you meant by that statement), but it would OBfuscate and hinder the entire discussion, necessitating clarifications that would not have been needed if I hadn't taken your remark out of context. Do you see what I mean? John should have (and I did ask him to do this...and he finally did do it) clarified instead of contradicting in the first place. Then, all of this extra junk would have been avoided. He could have said something like, "As long as 'whatever works' for our families in the household area does not go against God's Word, we are free to do it. Unfortunately, there are those in the world who have a 'whatever works' attitude, and completely disregard God's Word." Or something like that.

I disagree that John didn't intend to single out KOB - based on the "no" at the beginning of his post and the phrase he encased in quotes. And that was the purpose for my final statement. Again, I should have placed the statements differently - although I think it's possible that offense would still be taken.

I'm sorry if you felt that I was saying that John doesn't follow God's Word for his family - that was not my intent nor is it my belief.

I actually was not stirred up to anger. But I didn't appreciate the statement because it was aimed at KOB, not in general. As Annie ably pointed out, a general point would be worded differently.

And,John, I agree wholeheartedly with this post:

Yes, the specifics of the household chores are not addressed in Scripture, which is why I typically don't address the specifics of how a household should be run.

However, when we use a phrase like "whatever works", that encompasses a whole host of unbiblical ways. There are many households where the wife/mother stays at home, does a few things around the house, watches a lot of TV, then complains to the husband and children of how busy she is, how she has no time for the chores she should be doing but doesn't.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a husband helping with some housework, just as there is nothing wrong with a wife helping her husband with "manly" outdoor tasks.

(and just for clarity's sake: I agree with the whole post, not just that which I quoted...) Posting that to begin with would have been more in line with what I've come to know by your postings.

[no name joe]

Wow. A simple comment of mine stirred up quite a hornets nest.

If you look back at my post, my "whatever works" comment deals nothing with what is in Scripture or authority or anything of that nature. My comment was made in the context of how a couple divides up household responsibilities. Nothing in the Bible addresses that. Each couple's situation is unique. Each face their own challenges of providing for and maintaining a household. How those responsibilities should be divided on what works for that couple. for example, my grandmother who cannot sit still did 100% of teh cooking and cleaning for my grandad. That worked for them and he had other responsibilities. At my house, that does not work. Placing all household duties and chores on my wife would make her feel alone, like a maid, she would get behind and depressed, which in turn makes me depressed. It is bad ofr our marriage, so we divide and conquor and work as a team. That works for us, it may not work for another couple. If I, at my house said she would do all cooking and cleaning, that would NOT be loving her as Chrsit loves the church and being a spiritual leader. That would lead her to feeling alone and depressed. That is not fufilling my responsibilities. So we work as a team.

There is no right or wrong way to divide responsibilities around the house. That should be worked out for whatever works between the couple. What works for me will not work for others. What works for others will nto work for me.

The biblical principles work for everyone, and how those are applied to a given situation will vary. We are all different and unique and while the principle remains true, how I love my wife as Christ loves the church will differ from how HappyCHristian's husband loves her has Christ loves the church, will differ from how you love your wife as Christ loves the church. Everyone has different needs, schedules backgrounds, etc. The principle is universally true and can fit every situation, but will look different when we talk about different households.

Now I know how politicians feel when they when they see quotes in political ads that they made out of context. lol.

[no name joe]

There are actually many professing Christian families out there where the wife stays home while the husband works and yet they operate on the idea household tasks should be "shared". I know of several women who don't like to do dishes so they let them pile up for their husbands and say he should do something around the house. This, despite the fact their husband is taking care of his duties by working, taking care of the yard, vehicles, home maintenance, etc.
/quote]

I can tell you that with two children under the age of 3, that there is no time for either of us to watch televsion. When she is at home caring for them all day, there is no way for her to get all household duties done. I can't get mine all done either. It take teamwork and both of us giving 110% My post said nothing about one party being lazy or negligent in their responsibilities. In dividing chores and sharing responsibilities, we are loving one another and taking care of the home so our children will grow up in a good environment.

I can also tell you that if one party is being lazy and watching tv all the time, that is not working for them. They may be getting by, but one or both parties will become depressed and resentful toward one another. Whan I say couples need to do what works for them, I mean that they must both give 110% to making their home and marriage a success. How they accomplish that and how they carry out daily chores will vary widely from situation to situation.

[Brother Rick]

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that women should do ALL the work around the house.

Being a good husband, I've helped my wife throughout the years in this regard. This post is to demonstrate to other husbands ways in which they can also be a help to their wives as they (the wives) do all the work around the house.

1. The car tends to get a little dirty during the winter, so I bought her some ice cleats so she won't slip on the ice when she's out washing it.

2. I always make sure to have one of the kids go outside and hold the ladder for her when she hangs up the Christmas lights.

3. Because I believe good health is important, we recently purchased a push non-electrical lawn mower so she can tone up a little while cutting the grass.

4. I send my four year old out into the neighborhood at night to gather sticks for kindling, that way my wife doesn't have to.

5. I recently bought a key ring holder and had my wife hang it up by the door, that way she can always know where the keys are to get the car warmed up for me in the morning.

This is all a joke.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Miss Linda]

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that women should do ALL the work around the house.

Being a good husband, I've helped my wife throughout the years in this regard. This post is to demonstrate to other husbands ways in which they can also be a help to their wives as they (the wives) do all the work around the house.

1. The car tends to get a little dirty during the winter, so I bought her some ice cleats so she won't slip on the ice when she's out washing it.

2. I always make sure to have one of the kids go outside and hold the ladder for her when she hangs up the Christmas lights.

3. Because I believe good health is important, we recently purchased a push non-electrical lawn mower so she can tone up a little while cutting the grass.

4. I send my four year old out into the neighborhood at night to gather sticks for kindling, that way my wife doesn't have to.

5. I recently bought a key ring holder and had my wife hang it up by the door, that way she can always know where the keys are to get the car warmed up for me in the morning.

This is all a joke.

So very appropriate for your 1,000th post, Superman!

[HappyChristian]

This is all a joke.

Sure, Rick. Sure.