Tools for the married woman

[HappyChristian]

You specifically quoted my post and by your final statement you indicate you took my post to be directed and kindofblue's post. Had I wished to comment specifically upon some point of his post, I would have quoted his post. All I intended was to point out that we are to OBey God, not "whatever works".

Since your post quoted my post, that's an indication you are speaking to the one quoted. If not, such should be indicated.

Chill, John. This is mountain making out of mole hills. You did quote specifically on his post: you put a phrase he wrote in quotes (and you started iwith "no" - clearly indicating you were addressing him). That's being pretty specific. My post was a comment brought on by your post, aimed at the premise of the OP. All you intended? Well, the impression I got was that you were implying that kind doesn't OBey God. You may not have intended that impression, but it's there. However, I didn't jump on you. Had I, it would have been unmistakable.

[John81]

Chill, John. This is mountain making out of mole hills. You did quote specifically on his post: you put a phrase he wrote in quotes. That's being pretty specific. My post was a comment brought on by your post, aimed at the premise of the OP. All you intended? Well, the impression I got was that you were implying that kind doesn't OBey God. You may not have intended that impression, but it's there. However, I didn't jump on you. Had I, it would have been unmistakable.

By quote I am referring when one hits the reply button that puts anothers post in their own. I had no intention of implying anything with regards to his post so I didn't do that. I commented upon one particular unbiblical statement. Very specific.

[HappyChristian]

By quote I am referring when one hits the reply button that puts anothers post in their own. I had no intention of implying anything with regards to his post so I didn't do that. I commented upon one particular unbiblical statement. Very specific.

I know you commented on one particular statement that YOU took to be unbiblical - simply because he didn't qualify it the way you think he should have (and putting phrases in quotes is another way of quoting...). I have a feeling that he didn't think it was necessary to state that he meant whatever works within what God says because this is a Christian forum, and it is understood that we are to do all things within God's parameters. This:

Had I wished to comment specifically upon some point of his post, I would have quoted his post.

and this:

I commented upon one particular unbiblical statement. Very specific.

are contradictory statements, John.

[John81]

It's very simple. Either we believe we can do whatever works or we believe we are to do as God says.

[Annie]

It's very simple. Either we believe we can do whatever works or we believe we are to do as God says.

But the two are not mutually exclusive. Therefore, you cannot frame it in either/or terms.

Last sentence of kindofblue's post: People should do whatever works in their marriage. I get a kick out of folks saying a man has no place doing household chores. No wonder his wife nags him!!!! lol

John (immediately below kindofblue's post): No, people should not do "whatever works in their marriage."

John, if you weren't replying to kindofblue's post here, then you sure did fool me! It's pretty OBvious that you were quoting his material, and contradicting it (since no one else on here had said those words). You know, I agree that we shouldn't take a "whatever" approach to marriage, but I don't think that's what kindofblue was communicating here. My husband and I do indeed do "whatever works" in our marriage regarding contributing to the safety, cleanliness, and well being of our household, and it's not out of line with what the Bible says. "What works" for us might not be "what works" for you and your wife, but that fact, in and of itself, doesn't mean that one of us is "wrong" and the other "right." My husband helps out with certain chores because he wants to lighten my load; my kids help out, too, even though they are not biblically designated "keepers at home." They demonstrate their love for me and for our home by pitching in and cheerfully helping. This setup "works" for our family on a number of levels...and it follows right along with God's directions concerning loving one another and serving one another. Edited November 19, 2010 by Annie

[HappyChristian]

But the two are not mutually exclusive. Therefore, you cannot frame it in either/or terms.

Last sentence of kindofblue's post: People should do whatever works in their marriage. I get a kick out of folks saying a man has no place doing household chores. No wonder his wife nags him!!!! lol

John (immediately below kindofblue's post): No, people should not do "whatever works in their marriage."

John, if you weren't replying to kindofblue's post here, then you sure did fool me! It's pretty OBvious that you were quoting his material, and contradicting it (since no one else on here had said those words). You know, I agree that we shouldn't take a "whatever" approach to marriage, but I don't think that's what kindofblue was communicating here. My husband and I do indeed do "whatever works" in our marriage regarding contributing to the safety, cleanliness, and well being of our household, and it's not out of line with what the Bible says. "What works" for us might not be "what works" for you and your wife, but that fact, in and of itself, doesn't mean that one of us is "wrong" and the other "right." My husband helps out with certain chores because he wants to lighten my load; my kids help out, too, even though they are not biblically designated "keepers at home." They demonstrate their love for me and for our home by pitching in and cheerfully helping. This setup "works" for our family on a number of levels...and it follows right along with God's directions concerning loving one another and serving one another.

Thank you, Annie - exactly the point I was trying, and OBviously failing, to get across.

[DennisD]

I'm going to try to be very careful with my words here. Even if John was specifically pointing out a part of the previous post, so what? Shouldn't the biblical way of marriage "work for everyone"? Whether that goes into specifics is irrelevant. It seems what happened after that is the same thing people were blaming John that he did. Sometimes I really wonder if people argue just because they like to argue...I don't know.

Edited November 19, 2010 by DennisD

[John81]

I'm going to try to be very careful with my words here. Even if John was specifically pointing out a part of the previous post, so what? Shouldn't the biblical way of marriage "work for everyone"? Whether that goes into specifics is irrelevant. It seems what happened after that is the same thing people were blaming John that he did. Sometimes I really wonder if people argue just because they like to argue...I don't know.

Indeed. Amazed at the response to saying we are to follow Scripture rather than the worldly doctrine of "whatever works".

[Annie]

I'm going to try to be very careful with my words here. Even if John was specifically pointing out a part of the previous post, so what?

I agree: so what?...Unless he is telling us that he wasn't doing that. He's expressing surprise that Happy thinks he was quoting kOB's post. He says, "I had no intention of implying anything with regards to his post, so I didn't (quote him)." Happy and I were just showing him that he did indeed directly quote kOB's post, whether or not he "put a box around" the words he quoted. His post was a direct response to kOB's.

Shouldn't the biblical way of marriage "work for everyone"? Whether that goes into specifics is irrelevant. It seems what happened after that is the same thing people were blaming John that he did. Sometimes I really wonder if people argue just because they like to argue...I don't know.

Yes, the biblical way of marriage should indeed work for everyone. That's why John's statement needs a bit of clarification...He said, "Either we believe we can do whatever works or we believe we are to do as God says." Since God's way does work (which I'm sure is the idea assumed by kOB), it's not an either/or thing...That's all I was pointing out. It's really no big deal...I'm sure John would agree! But it seems that he's being strangely stubborn. Instead of saying, "Yes, I was referring to kOB's post when I directly quoted his material, but let me clarify further. I agree that God's way works for families, so, really, we don't have to choose between 'whatever works' and 'what God says.' I am not against men helping their wives with household chores," etc. But, instead of doing that, he stolidly maintains that he wasn't even addressing kOB's post at all, when it is OBvious that he was. Strange.

I do not like to argue about piddly stuff like this. So, I'll try to help get to the end of this misunderstanding. John, would you agree that...

1) God's way is the only way that 'works' for families, and therefore, in seeking 'what works' we are actually seeking God's way...not that we are pragmatists, but that we choose God's way even when it doesn't seem to be working. So, your statement about having to choose between 'whatever works' and 'God's way' could be further clarified by acknowledging this fact?

2) It is not going against God's way for husbands to help around the house. The fact that different husbands have different levels of involvement in household work does not, in and of itself, indicate that some are going against God's way, and some aren't. "What works" for one family in these particulars (as kOB detailed) might not be "what works" for another family, yet both families could be following God's way.

3) That we should assume that kindofblue's comment about "whatever works" was made with the understanding that "whatever works" is in line with God's will, and, this being true, that a better way to deal with the comment might have been to take it as intended, perhaps clarifying it further, instead of directly quoting and contradicting it.

What say you, John? Edited November 19, 2010 by Annie

[John81]

As I stated, by "quote" I meant I didn't quote an entire post...I don't know what the term is for post quoting. I had no intention of addressing a particular post or a particular person. I wanted to address a particular point and since someone else had posted that themselves, I placed quote marks about that one point so as to acknowledge those words originated with another, not myself.

It should have been evident that since I didn't reply to a post and I addressed nothing but one point, that my post was very specific to that point and not addressed to any one person or any other aspect.

[rancher824]

I believe the reason for the "whatever works" statement rather than "God's way" is because of those like TC. They take a few verses out of context and build a standard. They put many extras into that standard that the Bible does not even come close to touching. Then they point everyone to those few verses, taken out of context, and say if you do not do it MY WAY, you are going against God. So then there are some of us who see that God left some things open for our discretion as to how we want our house to work. For instance, can anyone give me where the verse that says men's hands shall not touch dishwater? How about that they are not to clean? How about that if a woman does not shine her husbands shoes X number of times a week she is sinful? No? You cannot find them. That is because they are not there!!! Therefore God leaves these things up to "whatever works" in a household. I personally would not want my wife to shine my boots because she has enough responsibility as it is. Does that mean for you to ask your wife to shine yours would be wrong? No. But if we say everything must be "GOD'S WAY" then there should be a right and wrong about it. Either I should tell my wife to, or you should not want your wife to. But there are somethings God leaves up to us to decide. I mean which brand of car does God want us to drive? Ford, Chevy, Toyota, ect. You will not find this in the Bible. Therefore it is whatever works for your family. Do I mean not to pray before making a purchase? No. It is always best to pray before any decision. But if there was a right and wrong on brands, a preacher should be preaching against the evils of driving a Ford. (I chose Ford as that it is the brand I drive, so there should be no hurt feelings.) It amazes me the things that men try to say makes a true man. I have always been one who has tried to be able to handle doing most anything. I can cook, do laundry, build a house. I try to learn how to do different things. I cannot finish concrete. Now do any of these make me any more or less a "man" ? No. They make me me. But I have seen men that there attitude is that I cannot do things (no I am not talking sinful things such as drinking, bars, other things that are not scriptural) and be a man. I have heard of a family that makes there daughter clean there sons room because he is a male!!!! To me this is crazy, and teaches laziness. And I do not find it in scripture.

[Annie]

I believe the reason for the "whatever works" statement rather than "God's way" is because of those like TC. They take a few verses out of context and build a standard. They put many extras into that standard that the Bible does not even come close to touching. Then they point everyone to those few verses, taken out of context, and say if you do not do it MY WAY, you are going against God. So then there are some of us who see that God left some things open for our discretion as to how we want our house to work. For instance, can anyone give me where the verse that says men's hands shall not touch dishwater? How about that they are not to clean? How about that if a woman does not shine her husbands shoes X number of times a week she is sinful? No? You cannot find them. That is because they are not there!!! Therefore God leaves these things up to "whatever works" in a household. I personally would not want my wife to shine my boots because she has enough responsibility as it is. Does that mean for you to ask your wife to shine yours would be wrong? No. But if we say everything must be "GOD'S WAY" then there should be a right and wrong about it. Either I should tell my wife to, or you should not want your wife to. But there are somethings God leaves up to us to decide. I mean which brand of car does God want us to drive? Ford, Chevy, Toyota, ect. You will not find this in the Bible. Therefore it is whatever works for your family. Do I mean not to pray before making a purchase? No. It is always best to pray before any decision. But if there was a right and wrong on brands, a preacher should be preaching against the evils of driving a Ford. (I chose Ford as that it is the brand I drive, so there should be no hurt feelings.) It amazes me the things that men try to say makes a true man. I have always been one who has tried to be able to handle doing most anything. I can cook, do laundry, build a house. I try to learn how to do different things. I cannot finish concrete. Now do any of these make me any more or less a "man" ? No. They make me me. But I have seen men that there attitude is that I cannot do things (no I am not talking sinful things such as drinking, bars, other things that are not scriptural) and be a man. I have heard of a family that makes there daughter clean there sons room because he is a male!!!! To me this is crazy, and teaches laziness. And I do not find it in scripture.

100% agree, rancher, and well put. "Whatever works" in the particulars of housekeeping is not outside the bounds of God's will for our lives. We can indeed do "whatever works" for us and not be disOBeying God. That's why I was concerned about John's post.

[John81]

Yes, the specifics of the household chores are not addressed in Scripture, which is why I typically don't address the specifics of how a household should be run.

However, when we use a phrase like "whatever works", that encompasses a whole host of unbiblical ways. There are many households where the wife/mother stays at home, does a few things around the house, watches a lot of TV, then complains to the husband and children of how busy she is, how she has no time for the chores she should be doing but doesn't.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a husband helping with some housework, just as there is nothing wrong with a wife helping her husband with "manly" outdoor tasks.

However, if the wife is being negligent in her duties, it is wrong for the husband to support this by doing her work for her. There is a big difference between a truly busy wife/mom being unable to get to everything that needs to be done each day, or has a particularly busy day and something goes undone, and her husband helps her or she nicely asks for some help and he then helps her...and the wife/mom who neglects her duties so she can watch 4 hours of soap operas, take an hour nap and an hour bath each day, and then expect, or even demand, that her husband do her neglected work after he comes home from a full day of work.

Other examples could be put forth, but hopefully this makes the point clear.

Men and women have duties they are to take care of. One of the duties of women is the care of the home. If the wife neglects this duty or simply expects her husband to do some or much of it, or her husband decides his wife shouldn't have to do her duty so he will do it for her, then we are moving outside following the Bible.

There are actually many professing Christian families out there where the wife stays home while the husband works and yet they operate on the idea household tasks should be "shared". I know of several women who don't like to do dishes so they let them pile up for their husbands and say he should do something around the house. This, despite the fact their husband is taking care of his duties by working, taking care of the yard, vehicles, home maintenance, etc.

The Bible doesn't detail everything, but that's because it shouldn't have to. The wife is to take care of the household. This applies to whatever time, culture or nation we live in. This applies whether or not the home has a dishwasher, how many dishes there are or whether or not the wife likes to do dishes. (just using dishes as an easy example)

As stated, there is nothing wrong with a husband or wife helping the other, but neither should be enabling the other to neglect their duties.

If a pastors wife doesn't want to wash dishes because she'd rather watch TV each day, her husband shouldn't do them just as if her husband wants to be lazy come Sunday morning she shouldn't go deliver his sermon for him...the same if the wife's husband is a warehouse worker or whatever his jOB, she shouldn't go to do his jOB because he doesn't want to just as he shouldn't do her jOB just because she doesn't want to.

Sorry this seems long, just trying to be clear.

[Annie]

John, thanks for attempting to clarify. I'm still a bit confused. I've never heard that not putting a box around a person's words means that you're definitely not addressing what that person has said. I don't really understand that. Be that as it may, could you futher clarify, so that we know what you meant by saying, "No, people should not do 'whatever works' in their marriage; they should do what God says." Do you think that kOB was saying that we should do whatever works, whether it goes against the Bible or not? If that is not what he was saying, then why take his remark out of context (directly quoting it) and contradict what he wasn't even saying? That's the kind of thing that derails a discussion pretty quickly (not that this one was really going anywhere, but we were at least having fun before the derailment ).

EDIT: I think you posted while I was posting. I appreciate your clarification and agree with it. Do you think that this is what kOB was saying, too?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Annie

[DennisD]

Annie, I would suggest re-reading this whole disagreement we've had and you will see that the thing John did was right away thrown back at him from the get go.

John makes a statement which yes is in KOB's post but is something MANY people use as a "guide". So, John points this out by quoting (using quotation marks to emphasize somewhat) and that we shouldn't be using that mentality but the Bible as our guide. To be fair, Happy I think was right when she said KOB did not say anything about not using scripture but not sure he said TO use scripture either.

Next, Happy post quotes John and says this (quoting John so must be talking AT him right?)

And men who preach and teach about marriage need to stick with what God says. One of those things (and the most important) is that each man is the individual head of his home. And if that head wants to do dishes, that's his business (nowhere does the Bible say the man is to never do dishes) or whatever, that's his business...and that is "whatever works in their marriage." If the head of the home wants to be a neanderthal and "make [his] wife sweat," that's also his choice, even though his wife and children are to be pitied. (God says a man is to love his wife as Christ does the church, and to treat her as he would treat himself...that would actually rule out neanderthal-like attitudes)

kindofblue didn't indicate anywhere that he felt Christians should disregard what God says about marriage.

To me, this is Happy doing to John what she was telling him later on...not to do. To me (and it might not have been meant this way), Happy was telling him (John) needs to stick with what God says about marriage. Am I wrong? Could be, but I'm not wrong that it was perceived this way by me (it's my opinion, so can't be wrong in this instance).

That is why John says this:

I have no idea why you are jumping on me here. I never stated anything you said. My statement is 100% biblical and doesn't address any aspects of doing dishes. Better to take a post as written or ask questions to be sure of something rather than jumping to conclusions.

Happy retorts but she made the mistake of quoting John's post before so in essence, she was wrong to do so if she wanted to talk of the premise of the OP's post. It wasn't OBvious that Happy's comments weren't aimed at John, not at all.

Where did I jump on you? Or jump to a conclusion? I simply made comment, just as you did. Your last statement back at you, John!! My comments about dishes wasn't aimed at what you said (OBvious, I think, since you didn't mention dishes), it was aimed at the premise of the OP.

Below, Happy says his quotations are pretty specific...well, if those are pretty specific than what is post quoting John's entire post? Very very specific? Although, I do agree with Happy that it's a mountain out of a mole hill...I do not agree you chastise someone of something they might have done...by using the same tactic. Happy talks about impressions in this below quote and that's what I saw earlier with the quoting of John's post...the impression that Happy was speaking directly to John and saying he was not using the Word of God as his guide when stating we should use scripture as our guide to a happy, healthy marriage.

Chill, John. This is mountain making out of mole hills. You did quote specifically on his post: you put a phrase he wrote in quotes (and you started iwith "no" - clearly indicating you were addressing him). That's being pretty specific. My post was a comment brought on by your post, aimed at the premise of the OP. All you intended? Well, the impression I got was that you were implying that kind doesn't OBey God. You may not have intended that impression, but it's there. However, I didn't jump on you. Had I, it would have been unmistakable.

In light of all this, I feel John used quotes not to single out KOB (entirely) but to show that his quote was a general consensus of the public we should do "whatever works". If others didn't read it that way, I would suggest next time we ask for clarification from the person doing the quoting and not using the same tactic against said person. Edited November 19, 2010 by DennisD