You Will Eat Your Dispensations and You Will Like Them!

[Brother Rick]

Rick, your questions relate to YOUR understanding of dispensations, not mine.
The old covenant disp, concerning the physical descendants of Abraham, effectively ended with the cross, so we are in the NC disp, aka the Gospel disp, or disp of grace. The Gospel goes out to all nations, & all believers become Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Daniel's 70 weeks (490 years) predicts Messiah coming & being anointed after 69 weeks; and his death in the middle of the 70th week. The 70th week ends 3½ years after the resurrection, marked by the stoning of Stephen when the Jews were declared "uncircumcised", & the conversion of Cornelius, opening the Gospel to the Gentiles. Insisting that 1,000 years must be exactly 1,000 years, while extending 490 years to 2,500 years is hopelessly inconsistent.

Every time God gives us a specific time period in the Bible He is consistently accurate in that. He was accurate about when the Jews left Egypt, He was accurate about when the Jews left Babylon, and He was accurate about WHEN the Messiah would appear. What follows the 69 weeks is a subject in of itself.

You believe in a Second Coming of some kind, so you must OBviously recognize the fact that many of the Old Testament prophecies speak of both a First Coming and Second Coming. You put those second coming prophesies in the Everlasting Kingdom, or the New Heavens and New Earth. Regardless, you admit there are Second Coming prophesies in the Old Testament. It is VERY COMMON for the Second Coming and First Coming prophesies to be right on top of each other, and to the Old Testament Jew he would see that as happening at the same time – both events. The point is, Daniel wrote the weeks as if the Jews accepted Christ. If they did, there would have been no gap. They did not, so that is why there is a gap in time.

Regardless, I don’t want to get drawn into a tedious discussion on Daniel’s 70 weeks, I just reiterate the fact that when God tells people a specific time period, as He did in the three examples I gave you, God keeps His word about that time period. There is nothing vague or ambiguous about it, and saying that Christ will rule for 1,000 years SIX TIMES in Revelation 20 is very specific.

All that remained to rebellious ethnic Israel was the destruction prophesied by Gabriel in the 70 weeks prophecy, & detailed by Lord Jesus in his Olivet prophecy. Believing Jews are of course Abraham's seed, & have no further interest in their ethnicity. (Phil. 3)

You still haven’t explained How God has protected the unsaved and rebellious nation of Israel. The Bible explains it:

Mal. 3:6, "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of JacOB are not consumed."

Rom. 11:27-29, "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Mankind is still in rebellion against Christ, despite the Gospel of grace, & wars against believers, particularly converts. We are in a relationship of peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ but that puts us in a state of war against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
continued

I agree. We wrestle not against flesh and blood.

The OC Scriptures prophesy a perfect future for Israel, & a temple for universal worship.
Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.... mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. (56:7)

Christ himself is the true temple, & believers are built into him, as living stones. Acceptable sacrifices must refer to Calvary, & our submission to Christ. (Rom. 12) John makes it clear that there will be no future temple. (John 4, Rev. 21)

You were wise to point out that the temple is Jesus Christ, because in the New Heavens and New Earth there is no temple (Rev. 21:23). However, that verse you quoted in Isaiah 2:2 is speaking of a literal temple and people walking up to it to worship a KING, not to mention Ez. 40-44 speaks of a rebuilt literal temple. You’re not going to spiritualize all of Ez. 40-48 are you, cubits and all? This is a huge difference between the Millennium and the Everlasting Kingdom that you’ve yet to reconcile.

That perfect future is the dispensation of the fullness of times - the NH&NE after Jesus' return for resurrection & judgement.
That glorious resurrection future will NOT be your millennium where supposedly resurrected believers & ungodly human sinners coexist on earth, culminating in a world-wide rebellion that surrounds Christ & his followers. It will be the glorious, perfect, future prophesied.
The present disp is preparing the way for that disp. Sinners from the nations are being saved, & made citizens of Christ's kingdom. Whether the rulers of the earth like it or not, Jesus is King of kings & Lord of lords.
Satan's position is like that of Mohamed or Saladin or Osama bin Laden - the great heroes of Islam - now dead but still honoured & followed as if they lived. The enemies of Christ honour Satan & war against Christ & Christians, but are powerless to keep sinners from repentance & faith in Christ.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus Christ certainly isn’t ruling over this mess right now with a rod of iron or it wouldn’t be the mess that it is. Satan is the god of this world; he is the one responsible for the worldwide darkness and apostasy today. Satan is not merely some terrorist, who every once in awhile shakes things up a bit. He is ruling over the wickedness we see today. When Christ rules over this Earth, things will be right and that is the believer’s hope.

Believers are citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. (Gal. 4) At the end of this millennial disp of Gospel grace, the followers of Satan will join their leader in persecution of believers - true Israel - wherever they are found. That final rebellion is the prophesied Armageddon, Gog & Magog, & ends with fire from heaven.

There are huge prOBlems with trying to make Armageddon and the battle of Gog and Magog the same. At Armageddon, in Revelation 19, Jesus Christ is riding a white horse and He is attacking the armies of the Beast, after that the fowls of the air eat the remains and THEN the Beast and the False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire and the Devil is cast into the Bottomless Pit.

At the Battle of Gog and Magog, in Revelation 20, Satan has been released from the Bottomless Pit and HE is the one doing the attacking. Fire comes down from Heaven and consumes Satan’s army, there are no remains left. Satan is then cast into the Lake of Fire where the Bible says the Beast and the False Prophet “ARE” – as in they’ve been there the whole 1,000 years. “The beloved city” is surrounded and attacked by Satan and his armies. Even IF (which it’s not possible) you are able to cram Armageddon and the Battle of G & M together – you still haven’t told me where this beloved city is.

That will bring about the NH&NE. Then all the wonderful things you ask about will be ours. Your kids can have their pet tiger- & feed it on hay.

Looking forward to it.

Here are some of the prOBlems with trying to make all of the Millennial passages in the Bible apply only to the New Heavens and New Earth:

1. The Temple passages. Like I said, Rev. 21:23 states there is no temple in the Everlasting Kingdom, and yet there are multiple passages where nations and people are going to a temple to worship a King (Is. 2:1-3; 33:20 Ez. 40-48). The only way to reconcile that is that is a Millennial Kingdom.

2. The Battles. I already pointed out the huge differences between the Battle of Armageddon and Gog and Magog, there is an undeniable period of 1,000 years between the two.

3. Death is abolished in the Everlasting Kingdom (I Cor. 15:26), but people still live to ripe old ages well past 100 years in the Millennial Kingdom (Is. 65:20). There is still death in the Millennium. If we're in the Millennium now, then you need to reconcile why 100 year old people are not considered "children" today.

4. Beloved city. During the Millennium, there is a beloved city, filled with believers. At the battle of Gog and Magog, this city is attacked by Satan and his armies directly. If the next thing on the calendar is the New Heavens and New Earth, then this battle is what is coming next - where is this beloved city filled with believers?

5. No sea in the Everlasting Kingdom. In the Millennium, the knowledge of the Lord shall be over the entire Earth as the "waters cover the sea" and the passage speaks of island of the sea. The same passage speaks of all animals living peacefully with each other, as in my kids playing with a pet tiger (Is. 11:6-11). Your prOBlem to resolve is that during the New Heavens and New Earth there is no sea (Rev. 21:1), yet in this passage it talks about the sea being in the Millennium.

God bless.

[Covenanter]

I'll try to answer main points to keep the discussion focussed.

Every time God gives us a specific time period in the Bible He is consistently accurate in that.

That is implying therefore a literal 1,000 years future millennium between the Gospel of grace 'disp' & the dispesation of the fulness of times.

Times are also measured in 'generations' of about 40 years (e.g. Mat. 1) specifically the 40 years from Olivet to AD 70. The 3½ years (42 months; 1260 days; time, times & half a time) after the deliverance of the Christian Jews from Jerusalem before the destruction appears cryptic, but was accurate.

So why do I think the 1,000 years is indeterminate?
Jesus warns against any attempt to date prophecy of his coming in final judgement;
Peter warns the the day of the Lord will come at a time between 1 day & 1,000 years, possibly being aware of Jewish fables, & of the Revelation;
The OT prophecies teach Christ coming to suffer & die to redeem Israel, & bring about the eternal kingdom of peace;
there is no OT prophecy of a millennial kingdom where They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD degenerating into a satan-led rebellion requiring the Lord to abandon his earthly kingdom & destroy it by fire.

Isaiah's NH&NE gives prOBlems - death for me, & the fact that it is a NH&NE for you. I consider that as God's revelation is progressive, the NH&NE prophecy is of an idyllic land where all is peace & that death is only at the end of a long & peaceful life. In fact, of course, it is better - everlasting life!

The NT makes it clear that a temple is absolutely OBsolete under the NC. John 2, John 4 ... the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father... God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: read on!

The tabernacle & temple were central to OC worship & that 'disp.' They, & the priesthood & sacrifices prefigured Christ & his saving work. There is no suggestion of a new temple being built in the NT. We are in a new C 'disp.' Every reference spiritualises the temple.

Is. 2 & Mic. 4 preclude future battles: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

We must 'spiritualise' Ezek's temple. It was designed for sacrificial worship & sin offerings. Eze 45:19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering. That is OC & is repugnant to the NC. It is first encouraging the Jews that they will return & rebuild a temple & resume OC worship. The tabernacle was a physical representation of a spiritual reality. Now we have Christ.

[Covenanter]

I recommend - insist - that you reread Hebrews in the light of our discussions.

There are huge prOBlems with trying to make Armageddon and the battle of Gog and Magog the same. At Armageddon, in Revelation 19, Jesus Christ is riding a white horse and He is attacking the armies of the Beast, after that the fowls of the air eat the remains and THEN the Beast and the False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire and the Devil is cast into the Bottomless Pit.

At the Battle of Gog and Magog, in Revelation 20, Satan has been released from the Bottomless Pit and HE is the one doing the attacking. Fire comes down from Heaven and consumes Satan’s army, there are no remains left. Satan is then cast into the Lake of Fire where the Bible says the Beast and the False Prophet “ARE” – as in they’ve been there the whole 1,000 years. “The beloved city” is surrounded and attacked by Satan and his armies. Even IF (which it’s not possible) you are able to cram Armageddon and the Battle of G & M together – you still haven’t told me where this beloved city is.

Armageddon only comes in Rev. 16. Look at the details of Rev. 19 & see that John is quoting from the G&M prophecy.

Rev 19:17 ¶ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

Eze 39:17 ¶ And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

Likewise the rod of iron implies final judgement according to Ps. 2:
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psalm 2 reads like Rev. 20 with the nations gathering against Christ. The 'beloved city' refers to the church - the gathering of the redeemed wherever they are on earth - worshipping in spirit & in truth.

You still haven't explained how the wonderful & peaceful millennium is such a disaster that that glorious kingdom with its peaceful men & animals has to destroyed by fire & a NH&NE brought into being.

I'm with Peter - his millennium was a time of Gospel grace while the scoffers mocked.

2Pe 3:11 [seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 ¶ Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation;

[Brother Rick]

You still haven't explained how the wonderful & peaceful millennium is such a disaster that that glorious kingdom with its peaceful men & animals has to destroyed by fire & a NH&NE brought into being.

That's easy, when Satan is released he tempts the nations to attack the beloved city.

Brother, you still haven't reconciled anything. You said Armageddon was the same as the Battle of Gog and Magog, and now you're saying that Armageddon happens in Rev. 16 and that Gog and Magog happens in Rev. 19 and 20. Which is it? Are they the same or different?

They're different. Armageddon is referred to more than once in Revelation. It is referred to in Revelation 6, 14, 16, and 19. Gog and Magog is different. You have failed to reconcile all the differences I already pointed out in my previous post as well as identify the beloved city.

As far as the temple goes, it's prophesied clearly in the Old Testament passages and Rev. 11. The last chapter of Isaiah speaks of people offering sacrifices in the Millennium. You think it's repugnant - God doesn't. It's in the Bible whether you like it or not.

You still haven't reconciled the fact that when God specifically gives time periods in prophesy He keeps His word about them. The "day nor the hour" that Jesus spoke of has nothing to do with the Millennium.

[Invicta]

To answer your question on the temple. there can be no temple now or in the future as there are not priests. Promising the Jews a future temple is giving them a hope that they can be saved by sacrifices, apart from faith in Christ. A different gospel.

[JerryNumbers]

Many verses can and are misunderstood, and this confuses many about the coming of Christ, and the events that will take place. Many think some verses contradict others, yet if you look at the properly, put them in order, there is no contradiction at all, and it becomes clear.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 4:13-18 (KJV)

He 1st comes from His own. When He comes for His own He will come as a thief in the night. Yet after this event He will come with His own.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:7 (KJV)

Yes, later He comes back, but this time he comes with His own.

See, He 1st comes for His own, this is the rapture of the church. Later He comes back with His own, in order to come back with His own He has to 1st come for them. This return with His own is when He will fulfill His promise to Abraham and to David. He will set on David's throne and rule the nations with a rod of iron.

[Covenanter]

That's easy, when Satan is released he tempts the nations to attack the beloved city.

Let me try to understand what you are saying.

So, Christ has set up a temporary (millennial) kingdom on earth, sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem, with resurrected believers administering it, over unregenerate people who are breeding children & ever-increasing resentment against Christ's wise, just, peaceful & perfect rule. People who are in their hearts seething with rage against Christ & all his, & living in anticipation of Satan's release so they can join in the prophesied last battle, though they know from prophecy they will be utterly destroyed.

Christ will even approve the building of a temple that will offer blood sacrifices again - utterly useless & unacceptable sacrifices for sin.

Hbr 10:1 ¶ For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.
4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Regarding a possible prophesied millennial temple, 2 Thes. was written around AD 50, while the temple of God was standing, awaiting its prophesied destruction. When John writes of the the temple of God in Rev. 11, we must first assume that he is writing about the Jerusalem temple still standing, especially as the context speaks of the destruction of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

I would rather infer a date for Revelation from Scripture, rather that an ambiguous remark by Irenaeus known only in a 4th C translation.

OT prophecies are in terms of OC rituals, all fulfilled by Christ. I cannot accept a re-establishment of temple rituals on the basis of OT prophecy. What did Jesus say? FINISHED!

Edited October 21, 2010 by Covenanter

[Invicta]

Christ will even approve the building of a temple that will offer blood sacrifices again - utterly useless & unacceptable sacrifices for sin.

Any such sacridfices would be a pollution, as there are no priests. Remember the sacrifice failed due to their being no priests to offer it. They has all been murdered in the insurrection. The Jews put the basest of fellows into the priesthood, but to no avail. They were killed and the sacrifice failed. The seditious burnt down the house of archives where all the genealogies were stored. Therefore there can ne no priests and no sacrifice. Any sush priest or sacrifice would be a pollution. Ezra 2:62.

[Covenanter]

That's easy, when Satan is released he tempts the nations to attack the beloved city.

By that explanation, the beautifully restored & peaceful earth has to be burned up. That sounds like a totally failed millennium.

You seem to be confused as to whether Isaiah 65-66 is prophesying the millennium or the NH&NE.

Brother, you still haven't reconciled anything. You said Armageddon was the same as the Battle of Gog and Magog, and now you're saying that Armageddon happens in Rev. 16 and that Gog and Magog happens in Rev. 19 and 20. Which is it? Are they the same or different?

Revelation is a series of iterations. Jesus' coming occurs many times in different aspects. But his glorious appearance in Rev. 1 is such that a personal reign as if he were a human king ruling the ungodly is unthinkable.

The battles are one, at the end of time, when the Lord returns for resurrection & judgement. It would be helpful to you to read the opening chapters of Isaiah, as there Jerusalem is condemned in very similar terms to those used in Revelation.


They're different. Armageddon is referred to more than once in Revelation. It is referred to in Revelation 6, 14, 16, and 19. Gog and Magog is different. You have failed to reconcile all the differences I already pointed out in my previous post as well as identify the beloved city.

You have failed to comment on the close similarity between G&M in Ezek. 39, & the judgement in Rev. 19. Can you give me the verses for Armageddon in Rev 6, 14 & 19?

We should see the pattern for the last judgement in Mat. 13 - the tares.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

You might like to explain how the so-called "rapture" fits into the tares parable, where those who offend are gathered out of his kingdom.

As far as the temple goes, it's prophesied clearly in the Old Testament passages and Rev. 11. The last chapter of Isaiah speaks of people offering sacrifices in the Millennium. You think it's repugnant - God doesn't. It's in the Bible whether you like it or not.

So God approves of the Isa. 66 sacrifices - presumable also the Isa. 1 sacrifices which are condemned in the same terms.

Isa 66:1 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?
2 For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 ¶ He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an OBlation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Isa 1:10 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Surely that is not what you think the rebuilt temple is for?

Notice this: In Isa. 2, the nations come to worship at the last days temple, while idolatrous JacOB rejects the LORD's call. The consequences are disaster.

Isa 2:10 ¶ Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

[Brother Rick]

Yes, God gives man one more opportunity to prove he can pass the test in the Millennium and they fail, again, as mankind in its own strength will fail every time. Man, even without the influence of a corrupt society or Satan is incurably corrupt and selfish. God lets all the excuses of "the Devil made me do it" and "I'm a product of my environment" be taken away in the Millennium. Why is that so hard to believe? The Millennium is a wonderful period of time but it does end in failure on man's part, not God's.

The purpose for the temple is secondary to the fact that it is prophesied to be there. To say that the sacrifices in the next temple get people to Heaven is to say that the sacrifices in the old temple did it too. I don't think anyone goes to Heaven outside of the blood of Jesus Christ in any dispensation. There's a lot of discussion and a lot of different ideas on what the purpose of the temple will be in the Millennium. Regardless, it is there. Revelation was written in 90 AD, so the temple wasn't standing in Jerusalem at that time. This verse speaks of a time in which God's throne will be placed amongst the children of Israel for ever and they will never defile it again. The place of the throne (Jerusalem) is forever, the temple is not.

Ez. 43:5-7, "So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
6) And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7) And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places."

Here's a link on the subject of the Ezekiel's Millennial temple, I don't know who the author is but she does a good jOB on this subject.

You've yet to clear up the glaring differences I pointed out between Armageddon and the Battle of Gog and Magog in post #46. The passages for Armageddon in Revelation are Rev. 6:12-17, 14:14-20, 16:16-21, and 19:9-21. You question the idea of the rapture, how do you account for the fact that the Bride is up in Heaven with Christ before the battle begins in Revelation 19, or I Thess. 4:15-18 where people are taken up into the clouds, not just raised up from the clods?

Posts #40, #42, and #46 haven't been dealt with.

You response to the three clear cut examples I gave about how God actually means what He says when He gives specific time periods in prophesy is very weak. I gave you three clear cut examples; you've yet to reply back with one clear example.

Still no logical explanation for Israel's continued existence, which is nothing short of miraculous.

Still no logical explanation how or why Jesus Christ is running the Earth right now in its extremely wicked state, and no clear explanation of what the Bible means when it calls Satan the "god of this world".

Still waiting for you to account for the Dragon being cast into the Bottomless Pit AFTER the battle in Revelation 19 and released from the Pit before the battle in Revelation 20, among other prOBlems with Satan being bound today, not bound today, influence felt or not felt today, etc.

Your answer for the temple prOBlem was to spiritualize eight chapters in Ezekiel. Why not spiritualize the New Heavens and the New Earth while you're at it? Why would John bother to mention there was no temple in the Everlasting Kingdom in contrast to the one in Revelation 11? Who sets the rules on what can be spiritualized and what can't?

Still waiting on your answer about where the Beloved City is today.

Still waiting on your answer about the sea in the Millennium (with kids playing with snakes in the same passage and the Earth being filled with the knowledge of the Lord) but no sea in the Everlasting Kingdom.

Still waiting on your answer about 100 year old children dying in the Millennium, but no death in the Everlasting Kingdom.

Maybe after all of that we can talk about the differences in the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Judgment of the Nations, and the Great White Throne Judgment. You won't be able to reconcile those differences though because the only way to do that is to recognize the fact that the Millennial reign of Christ is a future kingdom different than what we are in now and different than the New Heavens and New Earth. You'll love the Millennium, and you and I will laugh about this conversation and not really care about who's right or wrong as we enjoy serving our King.

God bless, brother.

II Tim. 2:15, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Edited October 21, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

Keep going guys, this is great!

[Covenanter]

you and I will laugh about this conversation and not really care about who's right or wrong as we enjoy serving our King.

God bless, brother.

II Tim. 2:15, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

I may take time to respond.

I need to prepare a Bible study for tomorrow, for a mixed Asian/English group, including a lady who meets with her guru on Sunday mornings, but is happy to come to us & sing Christian songs. We known Saroj for 20 years & she has never responded to the Gospel. Others need building up as our Lord's day worship & teaching is no longer possible together.

[Brother Rick]

I may take time to respond.

I need to prepare a Bible study for tomorrow, for a mixed Asian/English group, including a lady who meets with her guru on Sunday mornings, but is happy to come to us & sing Christian songs. We known Saroj for 20 years & she has never responded to the Gospel. Others need building up as our Lord's day worship & teaching is no longer possible together.

Brother, I want you to know that I've appreciated this conversation with you. If you're right, which of course you're not ( that would crazy ) we'll still have a wonderful time in the New Heavens and New Earth, whether it comes now or 1,007+ years from now.

God bless you and stay in the fight for the Lord across the pond. Edited October 21, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Invicta]

Brother, I want you to know that I've appreciated this conversation with you. If you're right, which of course you're not ( that would crazy ) we'll still have a wonderful time in the New Heavens and New Earth, whether it comes now or 1,007+ years from now.

God bless you and stay in the fight for the Lord across the pond.

Of course he can't be right if ou are, but you are not.

I once said to a pastor, who would not have agreed with any of the three of us "We can't all be right, but we can all be wrong." and he replied, "I'm not wrong."

We had a preacher a few weeks ago who said "Christ is coming to the air." That of course is a false teaching as the scripture says he is coming and we will meet him in the air, a different thing altogether.

[John81]

Of course he can't be right if ou are, but you are not.

I once said to a pastor, who would not have agreed with any of the three of us "We can't all be right, but we can all be wrong." and he replied, "I'm not wrong."

We had a preacher a few weeks ago who said "Christ is coming to the air." That of course is a false teaching as the scripture says he is coming and we will meet him in the air, a different thing altogether.

Do you hold to the same view as Covenanter or something different?