Christian support for Homosexuality, Islam....

[CPR]

Is there a reason you don't like to address things directly but instead continually attempt to toss in side issues and aspects irrelevant?

Is the church you attend yoked to, a part of, the Episcopal church or not?

The Anglican church of yesteryear is not the same as the Anglican church of today.

My KJB was "produced" in America

The point ptwild is making is that individual Anglican/Episcopal churches do have autonomy.

Additionally, regardless of where your KJV was printed or produced, the British crown owns the copyright and it was originally produced by King James as the figure head of the Church of England. Sooo, seeing as how we commissioned the translation, you can thank us for it whenever...

[ptwild]

Is there a reason you don't like to address things directly but instead continually attempt to toss in side issues and aspects irrelevant?

Is the church you attend yoked to, a part of, the Episcopal church or not?

The Anglican church of yesteryear is not the same as the Anglican church of today.

My KJB was "produced" in America

Come on now John. I think you are the one that doesn't want to address this. Tell us why you shouldn't come out of the Baptist denomination now that some Baptist Churches have women pastors/preachers? (just for future reference sake, what do you guys prefer to call your leader - pastor or preacher? Or are they two different things. I am often confused by how those terms are used).

Yes, I attend an Episcopal Church.

Just another point of reference: The Anglican Church is much, much larger than what you see here in the states. It has 77 million members, only 2 million of which are Episcopalians. The vast number of Anglicans in this country do not support the "wickedness" you and I identify with the national church and the world wide Anglican Communion is on the verge of kicking the Episcopal Church out - or at least those that refuse to adhere to the rules. Which all goes back to my point that you shouldn't judge all of us by what you see in the news. The vast majority of us believe just as you and I do.

[John81]

The point ptwild is making is that individual Anglican/Episcopal churches do have autonomy.

Additionally, regardless of where your KJV was printed or produced, the British crown owns the copyright and it was originally produced by King James as the figure head of the Church of England. Sooo, seeing as how we commissioned the translation, you can thank us for it whenever...

Either the church is yoked to the Episcopal church or it isn't.

Your faulty logic regarding the KJB eliminates your attempted jabs in that area and has no bearing on the topic at hand.

[John81]

Come on now John. I think you are the one that doesn't want to address this. Tell us why you shouldn't come out of the Baptist denomination now that some Baptist Churches have women pastors/preachers? (just for future reference sake, what do you guys prefer to call your leader - pastor or preacher? Or are they two different things. I am often confused by how those terms are used).

Yes, I attend an Episcopal Church.

Just another point of reference: The Anglican Church is much, much larger than what you see here in the states. It has 77 million members, only 2 million of which are Episcopalians. The vast number of Anglicans in this country do not support the "wickedness" you and I identify with the national church and the world wide Anglican Communion is on the verge of kicking the Episcopal Church out - or at least those that refuse to adhere to the rules. Which all goes back to my point that you shouldn't judge all of us by what you see in the news. The vast majority of us believe just as you and I do.

What Baptist church? There are Baptist churches yoked to the SBC, there are some yoked to the General Baptists, there are Baptist churches which stand on their own, there are IFB churches and a variety of others. You will have to be more specific with regards to what you mean regarding Baptists.

Myself, I don't belong to a Baptist church that has any association with any church with women pastors.

The Anglican church, if they disagree with the women preists and homosexual priests, should have kicked out those churches that accept such long ago. Why remain yoked with ungodliness for years?

I'm not sure what the size of your church has to do with anything. Whether a church has 100,000,000 members or 10, if they abide by the Word of God, Praise God!, if not, then no biblical Christian should be a part of them.

We are not called to loyalty to a particular church or denomination, we are called to be loyal to Christ, following Him and OBeying His Word even when it means we don't have things our way or we must separate from what we know, like, love or prefer.

[CPR]

Either the church is yoked to the Episcopal church or it isn't.

Your faulty logic regarding the KJB eliminates your attempted jabs in that area and has no bearing on the topic at hand.

My church is part of the ECUSA and part of the larger worldwide Anglican Communion. However, my church also has autonomy to make its own decisions and disagree with various bishops if it sees fit. For example (I know you aren't SBC but bear with me for the example) the Southern Baptist Convention has many affiliated churches. However, each church has autonomy and doesn't have to agree with the larger convention. Each one is a local church. It is not like the RCC where what the pope says goes. The same is true for the Episcopal church. We do have the Archbishop of Canterbury, but he is not an infallible leader. Churches are free to disagree in various matters and still be part of the Anglican Communion.

Now please tell me how my logic regarding the KJV was faulty. Granted my joke may have been bad haha. But as far as the history of the translation, the British crown owns the copy right and it was commissioned by King James for the Church of England. All of the translators were members of the Church of England. That doesn't belittle the translation in anyway, but it is the history of it.

Pt, I have Baptists in my family and I have heard pastor and preacher used interchangeably. I believe they mean the same thing but pastor is slightly more formal.

[John81]

Consult the Word of God!

[Wilchbla]

It's interesting that some Baptists condemn churches like the Catholic church for teaching that they must be part of a specific church to be saved, but they are often the first to question if one is a "true Christian" when attending a church other than a Baptist church.

Maybe that old joke about Baptists thinking they are the only ones in heaven has a little bit of truth?

This is because of apostasy. Most of the other churches have apostatized. The logical conclusion of the heresies they allowed to accumulate in their churches as well as the rejection of the inerrant words of God. The Independent Baptist and some of you non-denominational churches are a few that's left. They'll prOBably be next to go. Eventually it will end up as just a group of bible believers meeting in their homes or wherever who really don't have any affliation with any denomination or movement. Edited August 12, 2010 by Wilchbla

[ptwild]

What Baptist church? There are Baptist churches yoked to the SBC, there are some yoked to the General Baptists, there are Baptist churches which stand on their own, there are IFB churches and a variety of others. You will have to be more specific with regards to what you mean regarding Baptists.

Myself, I don't belong to a Baptist church that has any association with any church with women pastors.

The Anglican church, if they disagree with the women preists and homosexual priests, should have kicked out those churches that accept such long ago. Why remain yoked with ungodliness for years?

I'm not sure what the size of your church has to do with anything. Whether a church has 100,000,000 members or 10, if they abide by the Word of God, Praise God!, if not, then no biblical Christian should be a part of them.

We are not called to loyalty to a particular church or denomination, we are called to be loyal to Christ, following Him and OBeying His Word even when it means we don't have things our way or we must separate from what we know, like, love or prefer.

Correct me if I'm not understanding you, but are you saying that if an IFB Church three states and a hundreds of miles away from you had a female pastor, that you would not longer go to your local IFB Church? That's what you understand not being "yoked" together means?

The thing about kicking people out of your denomination is that they are free to put whatever sign they want on the front of their churches. It's not like the Anglican Communion owns the trademark "Anglican" or "Episcopal." Technically, a congregation of gay women preachers could start their own church and call it IFB.

And the point is that my local church can't control what some church out in California or in New Hampshire does anymore than those churches can control my local church. I don't go to those churches. I don't support what they do. I go to my local Anglican Church and I don't see anything wrong with our doctrine. Why should I leave?

[John81]

Correct me if I'm not understanding you, but are you saying that if an IFB Church three states and a hundreds of miles away from you had a female pastor, that you would not longer go to your local IFB Church? That's what you understand not being "yoked" together means?

The thing about kicking people out of your denomination is that they are free to put whatever sign they want on the front of their churches. It's not like the Anglican Communion owns the trademark "Anglican" or "Episcopal." Technically, a congregation of gay women preachers could start their own church and call it IFB.

And the point is that my local church can't control what some church out in California or in New Hampshire does anymore than those churches can control my local church. I don't go to those churches. I don't support what they do. I go to my local Anglican Church and I don't see anything wrong with our doctrine. Why should I leave?

Do you not understand the word "independent"? That's what the "I" in IFB stands for. IFBs are totally independent. They are not affiliated with, connected to, associated with or otherwise yoked to any other church or organization.

The Episcopal church is very different in that they are affiliated with, connected to and associated and yoked with others by their very nature. Some Episcopal churches have done the right thing, abiding by the Word of God they removed themselves.

Were I a part of a church organized as the Episcopalians and part of that organization accepted wickedness such as women or homosexual pastors and they failed to separate themselves from such, as Scripture commands, then I would absolutely remove myself from that church and seek out a biblical home church.

If a good church remains yoked to wickedness then there is something rotting within and it's up to individual Christians to do right, OBey the Word of God, and separate themselves from such.

[ptwild]

Do you not understand the word "independent"? That's what the "I" in IFB stands for. IFBs are totally independent. They are not affiliated with, connected to, associated with or otherwise yoked to any other church or organization.

The Episcopal church is very different in that they are affiliated with, connected to and associated and yoked with others by their very nature. Some Episcopal churches have done the right thing, abiding by the Word of God they removed themselves.

Were I a part of a church organized as the Episcopalians and part of that organization accepted wickedness such as women or homosexual pastors and they failed to separate themselves from such, as Scripture commands, then I would absolutely remove myself from that church and seek out a biblical home church.

If a good church remains yoked to wickedness then there is something rotting within and it's up to individual Christians to do right, OBey the Word of God, and separate themselves from such.

Alright, fair enough. But, based on how you have described what "yoked" together means, the many Episcopal Churches within my dioceses are "yoked" to the Bishop. He is who connects us all to the other. It's not like each of the several churches are sharing bank accounts, or priests, or anything else for that matter (there are three other Episcopal Churches in my town and I have never been to them or had anything to do with them other than a softball game once). My Bishop will denounce homosexuality and the ordination of females in a heartbeat (and prOBably agrees with you as opposed to me on several other issues). On a larger scale, all Anglicans are "yoked" together by Canterbury. The Archbishop and the holy see is what in fact makes us all part of the Anglican Communion. The current Archbishop has requested (he has no power to order as we are all independent as well) that the Episcopal Church cease the ordination of homosexuals and has definitively stated that homosexuality is contrary to scripture and is therefore not accectable within the Church.

You mentioned that some Episcopal Churches have removed themselves. What you mean is that they renounced their Bishop and came under the Bishopric of a foreign Bishop. That didn't stop being Anglicans, or even Episcopalians for that matter. I have a feeling that my local Church would do the same thing in the event that our Bishop began ordaining female priests or confirming homosexuals.

[Kleptes]

2 Peter chapters 2 and 3 explain it pretty well. as does Romans 1.

[John81]

2 Peter chapters 2 and 3 explain it pretty well. as does Romans 1.

[chev1958]

Just a side note to clarify - in Baptist-speak, a pastor is defined as the head of a local church. Anyone who stands in the pulpit and delivers a sermon is a preacher. To call a pastor by "preacher" is not technically incorrect - because pastors are the main preachers - but "preacher" doesn't encompass his total jOB description.

I hope I said that right.

Mitch

[trc123]

I would like to make what I believe is an OBvious OBservation; but there may be some reading too whom it may not be so OBvious.

One can support the individual civil liberties and rights afforded by our secular government to an individual without condoning or supporting someone's sinful behavior (as defined in the Scriptures).

For instance, while I oppose the sin of homosexuality and gay marriage and I will legally speak out for my government to not allow it to be legal; I will not do anything to physically or emotionally harm (vicious name calling) those engaged in that sin. I will tell them it is sin and preach it is sin and call them to repentance, but it is not my place as a Christian to show hatred toward them. It is my place to show them the eternal and temporal results of their sin before God. After that, it is in God's hands to deal with and judge.

Also, it seems to me that we (me included) Christians are a bit hypocritical in the way we talk about and too those in the sin of homosexuality. We tend to not say so much about other sins (even sins of a sexual nature), while spewing forth hatefully when it comes to condemning homosexual sin. I am not sure why this is, perhaps you have a thought to share concerning it?

[chev1958]

My diocese has a Bishop and he is the spiritual head of all the churches within the diocese.

This is the point where independent Baptists have issues with religious "chains of command." As independent Baptists, our belief is that Christ is the spiritual head of each local church, and the pastor is the shepherd/pastor/administrator/chief cook and bottle washer of that church. The pastor would never consider himself the spiritual head of the local church he serves, nor would he be the spiritual head of several churches.

Independent Baptists see no need for the hierachy of denominations. Being independent to serve God is as important to us as being Baptists. If, as you say, an Episcopalian church can be independent and doesn't have to abide by Canterbury, then why have a bishop, a diocese, or a Canterbury at all? From your description, it sounds as if your church could be called an independent Episcopalian/Anglican church, but to be independent as IFSB, your church would have to remove itself from any diocese. That would mean that your pastor is the leader of your particular church, answering only to Christ. Thus, a diocese bishop or any other hierarchy setup is unnecessary. Use the money that supports that hierarchy to put more missionaries on the field.

Because there are many flavors of Baptist denominations, independent Baptists stress their independence of anything manmade and place their total dependence on Christ. The name Baptist indicates our general beliefs and practices, just as Episcopalian/Anglican indicates yours, but there is no such thing as an IFSB denomination. We have no headquarters nor central leader, other than Christ, nor do we pay membership dues. Although I'm a Baptist originally from North Carolina, I call myself a Baptist from the south, because Southern Baptist has a different connotation.