The Day I Changed- Salvation happened to me

[speerjp1]

What do you think he meant by praying in the "spirit(lower case)?" Do you think it was praying with his emotions and heart? That perhaps out of his emotions' date=' he uttered in an unknown language what was in his heart?[/quote']

More than likely it was simply the intimate conversation that a believer should have with his Heavenly Father that would be completely misunderstood by anyone who happened to overhear. That is why we are to pray in our closets, to avoid having to explain our prayers to others and to avoid the pride that may come by being praised for our prayers.

Another thing that should be remembered is Paul's earlier admonitions on speaking simply. Verses 9-11 of 1Cor. 14 seem to indicate that Paul thought there was enough difference in the language of the lay person and the language of the "doctor" of his day that they were considered by him to be different languages. It would be akin to praying in religious terminology that could be compared to legal jargon or medical or scientific terminology in order to impress men or God. I've heard that before and I can assure you that no one was edified. Paul was well-trained in God's word and was high up in the religious establishment prior to his conversion. However, in true Biblical meekness, Paul didn't use his vast knowledge of everything religious to try to impress God or men. In fact, he preferred to speak to the simplest so that all might understand and that all might be edified equally.

[1Timothy115]

I avoided this discussion with June because...I thought June might have come in with an opener like this to start an argument.

I have a personal experience with the "Full Gospel/Pentecostal/Holiness" movement. A dear friend, Doug, attempted to bring me into it; I've lost touch with him over the years.

I was in the Navy in the mid 70s, Doug was a neighbor in base housing. Doug and his wife, Carroll, were very friendly toward my wife and I; both were gracious and reserved. One day Doug invited my wife and I to Church and we took him up on the offer. The service was calm for a ?holiness? service. Doug remarked afterward, this church isn?t a good example of a Spirit filled Church.

Doug invited me to go with him to Houston, Tx. and we wnet along. The Church in Houston had a large building and congregation; I don?t remember the name of the Church. Mid way into the Pastor?s discourse he broke into some gibberish. Then, some of the pastorate joined in dancing across the platform with gibberish. It wasn?t long until similar behavior broke out across the congregation.

Doug urged me to go down front with him during the ?service? which, had broken out into total chaos; so, I went down there with him. People were running around, singing, dancing, and blabbering utterances which were totally unintelligible. Several ended up around me and a few of the men took me and leaned me back. One shook my lower jaw back and forth while the others shook my shoulders all the while chanting, ?speak in tongues.? They shook so aggressively my tongue was hitting both sides of the inside of my cheeks. I tried to say something (most likely?that?s enough) and they began yelling, ?He?s got it!? They left me and went to the next person who needed to be fully emmersed in the spirit. The only thing ?I got? was a strong desire to get out of there!

I didn't hear any "...speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" not even the pastor. I don?t recall any of them asking if I was saved or not. I believe their main concern was that?I got ?it!?

What I believe I saw was mass hysteria brought on and encouraged by some loose leadership. I don?t believe I saw God being worshipped to any degree. My take coming away was, the pastorate was on stage and the entire congregation was involved in the performance. This was my experience with the ?tongues-holiness? movement.

I believe it is scriptural that June-Lovejoy was banned from a Bible believing web site.

How do we get them to see "experience" as the confusion pointed out by the many who posted scripture in this thread? Is this a case for "Mark 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."?

[heartstrings]

When I got saved, there was definitely an experience, but it did not precede or supercede KNOWLEDGE. I heard the word of God preached, was convicted of my sin, and when I turned to Jesus from my sin in faith, I was flooded with a peace and joy, and a longing desire for God which I never had before. I can speak a little Spanish and know a few other foreign words but, I've never prayed in them, or spoken them in church. If a Charismatic or pentacostal is ever indwelled with the REAL Holy Ghost, I promise, they will never want anything else. It's quite obvious what the tongues in the Book of Acts were and it's also clear, from these two verses what the "tongues" of 1 Corinthians 14 were....foreign languages

i Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

So, if the context is "foreign languages", verse 21 would certainly reaffirm that. However, for the sake of complete understanding, can anyone explain and clarify the following two verses?

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.It says: "no man understandeth him"
Say, the guy in verse 2, has the gift and say his "tongue" is Spanish. Does this mean that, since he has the gift from the Holy Ghost, that he can utter Spanish at any time at will, even if no Spanish hearers are present?
If that is the case, it would explain why the tongue is "unknown" because nobody in the house at that particular time "knows" Spanish. Is this what it's saying?

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
So this guy whose "tongue" is Spanish would be foolish to use his "gift" during prayer because he himself also does not "know" Spanish. Is this what it's saying?

[kevinmiller]

Hmm...but even when you're having an "intimate" conversation with God, you can still understand what you're thinking and saying. The verse says when he prays in tongues, he doesn't understand. That would seem to indicate that he is unwillingly speaking in some other unknown language.

[kevinmiller]

When I got saved, there was definitely an experience, but it did not precede or supercede KNOWLEDGE. I heard the word of God preached, was convicted of my sin, and when I turned to Jesus from my sin in faith, I was flooded with a peace and joy, and a longing desire for God which I never had before. I can speak a little Spanish and know a few other foreign words but, I've never prayed in them, or spoken them in church. If a Charismatic or pentacostal is ever indwelled with the REAL Holy Ghost, I promise, they will never want anything else. It's quite obvious what the tongues in the Book of Acts were and it's also clear, from these two verses what the "tongues" of 1 Corinthians 14 were....foreign languages

i Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

So, if the context is "foreign languages", verse 21 would certainly reaffirm that. However, for the sake of complete understanding, can anyone explain and clarify the following two verses?

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.It says: "no man understandeth him"
Say, the guy in verse 2, has the gift and say his "tongue" is Spanish. Does this mean that, since he has the gift from the Holy Ghost, that he can utter Spanish at any time at will, even if no Spanish hearers are present?
If that is the case, it would explain why the tongue is "unknown" because nobody in the house at that particular time "knows" Spanish. Is this what it's saying?

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
So this guy whose "tongue" is Spanish would be foolish to use his "gift" during prayer because he himself also does not "know" Spanish. Is this what it's saying?

Me speaking in English at my Korean church is not a gift from the Holy Spirit. Studying and learning Korean isn't a gift from the Holy Spirit. Teaching children English isn't the spiritual gift of teaching. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural gifts that He gives as He desires.

[heartstrings]

Me speaking in English at my Korean church is not a gift from the Holy Spirit. Studying and learning Korean isn't a gift from the Holy Spirit. Teaching children English isn't the spiritual gift of teaching. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural gifts that He gives as He desires.

Yes, surely we all understand that. Having the supernatural Holy Spirit gift of tongues was the ability to speak an unlearned foreign language, as shown in the Book of Acts.
But let me reword the two questions:
1. If Kevin was a Corinthian who lived in the 1st century and Kevin had the Holy Ghost gift of speaking Korean, even though he had never studied or learned Korean; while Kevin was in the process of speaking Korean, could Kevin UNDERSTAND what he himself was saying?

2. And would this 'gift' enable Kevin to speak Korean, in a room full of other Corinthians who spoke no Korean?