Calvinistic dispensationalists claming not to be Calvinist?

[John81]

Maybe Benny Hinn beleives he preaches the Gospel too. The last time I looked, he even has the plan of salvation on his webpage.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Scripture also tells us we can KNOW we are saved. "Calvinists" who are born-again believers in Christ bearing fruit for the Kingdom show themselves to be biblically heavenbound.

[anime4christ]

heartstrings, all those verses are true, but you have to put them together with all other Biblical passages. Those passages, by the way, do not outline the process of salvation (not the plan of salvation). The process of salvation from God's point of view is written in Romans 8, Ephesians 2, and a few other places which do not mention human choice. Human choice comes after God's choice, just like Lazarus' choice to come out of the grave only came after Jesus raised him from the dead.

The Bible says to choose.

The Bible says man cannot choose.

The Bible says that God frees man to choose.

The Bible says that those who God frees choose then.

How can you reconcile these any other way but that God makes the choice before man does? They are all true, but they only make sense together that way.

[heartstrings]

heartstrings, all those verses are true, but you have to put them together with all other Biblical passages. Those passages, by the way, do not outline the process of salvation (not the plan of salvation). The process of salvation from God's point of view is written in Romans 8, Ephesians 2, and a few other places which do not mention human choice. Human choice comes after God's choice, just like Lazarus' choice to come out of the grave only came after Jesus raised him from the dead.

The Bible says to choose.

The Bible says man cannot choose.

The Bible says that God frees man to choose.

The Bible says that those who God frees choose then.

How can you reconcile these any other way but that God makes the choice before man does? They are all true, but they only make sense together that way.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

28And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.

29As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.

30Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.

31The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.

32Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

33When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.

34And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.

35Jesus wept.

36Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

37And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

38Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

39Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

45Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

46But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

It don't say what you said.......It only says he "came forth".
When Almighty God made Lazarus alive, how much alive do you think he was? Barely breathing?
If you're laying in a grave, wrapped in rags, breathing and fully alive....are you going to wait for somebody to tell you to get up? Um yeah reight
I believe Lazarus didn't come alive until he heard Jesus' voice pierce the underworld....and OBeyed. I can believe it that way I want.....because it don't say otherwise. I choose

[Wilchbla]

The trouble with anticalvinists is that they make their own 'logical' deductions from their own limited understanding.

They do not realise that calvinists follow Scripture - Scripture says God is sovereign, & we accept that; Scripture commands evangelism, & we preach the Gospel.

Where does scripture say anything about the "Sovereignity of God" Calvin style.

[Wilchbla]

Actually, they are. This is the point I've been trying to get across. The term "Calvinism" is a very broad term and no one definition fits all who call themselves Calvinists or who get labeled as Calvinists.

Some Calvinists are akin to the sort Spurgeon was. They take their doctrine to heart even though that doctrine isn't what you may think it is; isn't what other Calvinists hold to, or isn't what some think of when they think of Calvinism.

I'm not good at searching and can't locate it at the moment, but there is excellent documentation available showing the most evangelistic churches from England and in America during the time period examined were Calvinist churches. This is the Calvinist "norm". The hyper-Calvinists, who also hold some differeing views amongst them, are far fewer in number and the ones who believe evangelism is unnecessary. Spurgeon, along with many other Calvinists, have declared hyper-Calvinists are not true Calvinists at all.

Too many Christians are being lumped under one banner that doesn't even fit the majority. Broadbrushing is doing no one a service.

Big deal. Most churches at that time in England and America were baby sprinklers too. And at one time most Christians were Catholic. So this doesn't prove anything.

I've noticed, John, while reading your posts that you are becoming more syphthetic to Calvinisim and moving in that driection more and more.

[John81]

Big deal. Most churches at that time in England and America were baby sprinklers too. And at one time most Christians were Catholic. So this doesn't prove anything.

I've noticed, John, while reading your posts that you are becoming more syphthetic to Calvinisim and moving in that driection more and more.

What I am sympathetic to is arguments for or against a position that are biblical, not emotional, twisting of Scripture, ignoring of some Scripture, or lumping disparate peoples together as if they are one.

Unless you have the dates at hand the study I referrenced refers to your statement doesn't stand since neither of us at this point can say for certainty what those dates were. If I recall, it referred to the 19th and/or 20th century; yet I'm not certain. Regardless of the time period, the fact is the "Calvinist" churches were busier than others evangelizing the world seeing many born again in Christ around the glOBe.

My real-world experience with Calvinists is limited but none of those I've encountered are like what you have described. They preach the Gospel, they live by the Word of God, they baptize by immersion, they preach separation, they are very evangelistic, most are Baptist.

I know there are hyper-Calvinists as I've read of them and encountered some online. Their positions are very different from the Calvinists I've met and know of in the real world. Spurgeon, in the 19th century, wrote against hyper-Calvinists and declared even back then that such were not true Calvinists.

For the most part, broadbrushing isn't a good idea or a good technique. This doesn't only apply to Calvinists, but to a wide variety of things from blacks to those living in Appalachia to Republicans to Libertarians to Baptists...

[Brother Rick]

The Bible says to choose.

I agree.

The Bible says man cannot choose.

I agree.

The Bible says that God frees man to choose.

I agree.

The Bible says that those who God frees choose then.

I think I agree. You might have to clarify.

How can you reconcile these any other way but that God makes the choice before man does? They are all true, but they only make sense together that way.

1. All men were freed to be able to choose God after Calvary. God promised to draw all men unto Himself if Christ was crucified. So all men are free to choose Him now. God made the choice to draw all men on earth to Himself.

John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me."


2. It is a violation of God's will every time someone goes to Hell. If God chooses some go to Heaven, He therefore chooses some to go to Hell. This verse shows that idea to be false.

II Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


3. No one is predestinated to get saved. People get predestinated ONCE THEY ARE saved to other things, such as the adoption which is the redemption of our bodies at the rapture/resurrection/new heavens and new earth (whatever your eschatological flavor of choice is). Also, the Bible says that those who are "in Christ" (within the UNIVERSAL body of Christ) are predestinated, but no where does it say anyone is predestinated to get "in Christ". Once you are "in Christ" then you are predestinated.

Eph. 1:5, 11, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" "In whom also we have OBtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."


4. Hell was created for the Devil and his angels, not the for the people who God chose to go to Hell.

Matt. 25:41, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Edited July 30, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[heartstrings]

I agree.



I agree.



I agree.



I think I agree. You might have to clarify.




1. All men were freed to be able to choose God after Calvary. God promised to draw all men unto Himself if Christ was crucified. So all men are free to choose Him now. God made the choice to draw all men on earth to Himself.

John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me."


2. It is a violation of God's will every time someone goes to Hell. If God chooses some go to Heaven, He therefore chooses some to go to Hell. This verse shows that idea to be false.

II Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


3. No one is predestinated to get saved. People get predestinated ONCE THEY ARE saved to other things, such as the adoption which is the redemption of our bodies at the rapture/resurrection/new heavens and new earth (whatever your eschatological flavor of choice is). Also, the Bible says that those who are "in Christ" (within the UNIVERSAL body of Christ) are predestinated, but no where does it say anyone is predestinated to get "in Christ". Once you are "in Christ" then you are predestinated.

Eph. 1:5, 11, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" "In whom also we have OBtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."


4. Hell was created for the Devil and his angels, not the for the people who God chose to go to Hell.

Matt. 25:41, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

[anime4christ]

It don't say what you said.......It only says he "came forth".
When Almighty God made Lazarus alive, how much alive do you think he was? Barely breathing?
If you're laying in a grave, wrapped in rags, breathing and fully alive....are you going to wait for somebody to tell you to get up? Um yeah reight
I believe Lazarus didn't come alive until he heard Jesus' voice pierce the underworld....and OBeyed. I can believe it that way I want.....because it don't say otherwise. I choose

What?! The point is that Lazarus had no choice in being made alive. He had a choice of whether to stay in the grave or not, but it would be extremely stupid to stay there so it wasn't a logical choice. How could he choose whether to resurrect or not? That is a preposterous notion. You are right that you can believe the way you like, but herein is the prOBlem. You choose to believe according to your likes and dislikes. That is the root of all heresy; when people choose their beliefs according to the likes of their depraved nature. I dare not believe except what the Bible actually says to me. I do not choose to believe what I like; I believe according to what the scriptures plainly state. I would fear to build my beliefs on my likes and dislikes. Do you think I liked it when I first found out that man doesn't have a choice? I tried to escape it any way I could, but I couldn't, because the Bible makes it plain. Take it or leave it; don't play in between games. That is what was revealed to me and I dare not build my doctrine on what I like and I dare not conceal what I believe is the truth of God for the sake of pleasing men.

[heartstrings]

What?! The point is that Lazarus had no choice in being made alive. He had a choice of whether to stay in the grave or not, but it would be extremely stupid to stay there so it wasn't a logical choice. How could he choose whether to resurrect or not? That is a preposterous notion. You are right that you can believe the way you like, but herein is the prOBlem. You choose to believe according to your likes and dislikes. That is the root of all heresy; when people choose their beliefs according to the likes of their depraved nature. I dare not believe except what the Bible actually says to me. I do not choose to believe what I like; I believe according to what the scriptures plainly state. I would fear to build my beliefs on my likes and dislikes. Do you think I liked it when I first found out that man doesn't have a choice? I tried to escape it any way I could, but I couldn't, because the Bible makes it plain. Take it or leave it; don't play in between games. That is what was revealed to me and I dare not build my doctrine on what I like and I dare not conceal what I believe is the truth of God for the sake of pleasing men.

Sir, Lazarus was dead when he heard Jesus....

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

"The dead shall hear"...you know?..hearing a voice while you are still dead?

43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. Edited July 30, 2010 by heartstrings

[anime4christ]

The point is that God Almighty spoke to a dead man, and that dead man OBeyed...

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

He that WAS dead came forth. It does not say he was still dead when he came forth. That is ridiculous.

In any case, where was there a choice for Lazarus? I don't see it anywhere. Jesus command produced what it commanded: life.

[Brother Rick]

He that WAS dead came forth. It does not say he was still dead when he came forth. That is ridiculous.

In any case, where was there a choice for Lazarus? I don't see it anywhere. Jesus command produced what it commanded: life.

It's a mute point either way, there's no example of anyone in scriptures being forced to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour or anyone being forced to reject Him. Did you get a chance to read post #112? Edited July 30, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[heartstrings]

He that WAS dead came forth. It does not say he was still dead when he came forth. That is ridiculous.

In any case, where was there a choice for Lazarus? I don't see it anywhere. Jesus command produced what it commanded: life.

Did you not understand? I didn't say a dead man came forth; He came forth when he OBeyed. He's been laying there four days and he's already stinking but he HEARS God's voice while he's laying there dead

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Tell you what, if God helps you to understand this, it will be your choice whether to accept it or not.

[Invicta]

Big deal. Most churches at that time in England and America were baby sprinklers too. And at one time most Christians were Catholic. So this doesn't prove anything.

I've noticed, John, while reading your posts that you are becoming more syphthetic to Calvinisim and moving in that driection more and more.

I have been doing some reserach on Baptist Churches in the county of Norfolk and every one of the baptist churches in the county at the beginning were Particular Baptists, not baby sprinklers. They evangelized the county and beyond, building up many congregations aroung the county, some with faily wealthy merchants and manufacturers as leading members and some village churches which could not afford to pay a pastor. One, a farmer, ministered for 50 years without receiving any financial reward from the church, and also travelled to speak at conferences.

The rot set in when they ceased to be Particular Baptists, they first opened the table, then joined with General Baptists, then other groups, and one I was particularly interested in later became charismatic.

I suppose some anti Calvinists also preach the gospel Edited August 4, 2010 by Invicta

[Invicta]

To return the topic.

Calvinistic dispensationalists claming not to be Calvinist?

John Nelson Darby, the father of dispensationalism was a Calvinist, so you could say that dispensationalism came out of Calvinism, but what sort, I wouldn't like to say.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Invicta