Calvinistic dispensationalists claming not to be Calvinist?

[DennisD]

Many reasons: It is fulfilling Christ's command, we have compassion for people, it gives us joy to be used in God's work, we were predestined to do it. The last one might be funny, but it's logical.

The reverse of this question, however, is: If people have complete autonomy (aka absolute/libertarian free will), then is not the salvation of other's dependent on your success or failure in bringing the gospel to them? You have the power then to witness to one or not to, and their salvation is in your hands. Makes you sound powerful, like a god.

Now, I know you will OBject to such a notion, but I will also OBject to the notion that preaching the gospel is pointless in light of predestination, so that makes us even.

Preaching the Gospel was Christ's command correct? Not "soul winning" so I guess my question still stands...why go soul winning? I understand preaching the Gospel to all the world but don't understand the soul winning part. Now, with that said I realize preaching the Gospel is usually the pre-cursor to soul winning but it's still doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

When I first got saved and prOBably about 2 years after I was a Calvinist...in doctrine that is because I guess I didn't know better. I was attending an Independent Baptist church but still believed as a Calvinist. I often told myself, why should I even try to soul win if people are already destined to go to Heaven or hell? Why should I knock on doors and try to bring the Gospel to someone if it just doesn't matter because they will end up being saved or not saved no matter what I do? These are my thoughts when I believed in pre-destination or whatever it is.

As far as us "being even", sounds like something my kids would say to eachother, I don't know what you mean since my question was with sincerity because I would like to understand the viewpoint.

Lastly, if you ever decide that complete autonomy as you say is the right way...maybe you'll understand that it's not powerful to think that we are following God's command to preach the Gospel to all the world, give to missions, etc.

Just my 2 cents because I've been on both sides of the issue and once my eyes saw truth I wondered how can someone proclaim to be a Calvinist and then soul win? There is no soul winning because the soul has already been won correct? Now, just saying you are preaching the Gospel is one thing but saying you are soul winning as a Calvinist just doesn't seem right.

[DennisD]

Just wanted to add something in case it wasn't clear. I'm confused mostly that Jesus commands us to preach the Gospel but to what end? Just to hear ourselves speak? Or is it to lead souls to Him? I guess you could twist it around and say well that gives you, who are a man, too much power. What power? The power that God has given us right? Since He told us to preach the Gospel...the Gospel is the real power though.

When a pianist plays a beautiful song you don't congratulate the piano. We are the piano. God, through His Word, is the pianist and He receives the glory for it all.

[John81]

Does Scripture tell anyone to go "soul winning"?

What do you see as the difference between preaching the Gospel (or taking the Gospel to all) and soul winning?

Whether one takes the view that only those predestined to salvation will be saved or that anyone among the masses might be saved, the command of God is that they come to that salvation by hearing the Gospel. This is the means God uses to bring one to salvation. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...and how can they hear unless someone goes and presents the Gospel to them?

A Calvinist will view their spreading of the Gospel as God's means of drawing the elect to Christ. Non-Calvinists view it as putting the Gospel out there for those who might decide to respond.

Some rightly see that the Holy Ghost must be the prime mover in one coming to Christ but there are a good many non-Calvinists who see it as up to them to "win" the lost to Christ. These are the ones who tend to push and prod one into saying a "salvation prayer". They often present a very limited "Gospel" and are big on "easy believism".

Edited June 17, 2010 by John81

[DennisD]

Does Scripture tell anyone to go "soul winning"?

What do you see as the difference between preaching the Gospel (or taking the Gospel to all) and soul winning?

Whether one takes the view that only those predestined to salvation will be saved or that anyone among the masses might be saved, the command of God is that they come to that salvation by hearing the Gospel. This is the means God uses to bring one to salvation. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...and how can they hear unless someone goes and presents the Gospel to them?

A Calvinist will view their spreading of the Gospel as God's means of drawing the elect to hrist. Non-Calvinists view it as putting the Gospel out there for those who might decide to respond.

Some rightly see that the Holy Ghost must be the prime mover in one coming to Christ but there are a good many non-Calvinists who see it as up to them to "win" the lost to Christ. These are the ones who tend to push and prod one into saying a "salvation prayer". They often present a very limited "Gospel" and are big on "easy believism".

The above bolded is what I was looking for, thanks.

[Brother Rick]

The above bolded is what I was looking for, thanks.

From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong anyone out there, a Calvinist would believe that if no one witnessess to that person, they will be still be overwhelmed by the irresistible grace of God one way or another and get saved. In the end, they don't have a choice.

From that mindset, what's the point of witnessing? It would be the enjoyment of spreading God's word, that it's His will that we witness, and the rewards in Heaven.

But you lose the urgency of the matter.


Rom. 10:14, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

[DennisD]

From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong anyone out there, a Calvinist would believe that if no one witnessess to that person, they will be still be overwhelmed by the irresistible grace of God one way or another and get saved. In the end, they don't have a choice.

From that mindset, what's the point of witnessing? It would be the enjoyment of spreading God's word, that it's His will that we witness, and the rewards in Heaven.

But you lose the urgency of the matter.


Rom. 10:14, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

I'm of the same mindset you are, even if they don't witness to one of the "elect" they person will still be saved some other way.

Your second point on what is the point of witnessing is the reason why I've come away from my Calvinistic views because I just don't see the reason why Jesus would tell us to preach the word to all creatures if there were already pre-determined people going to Heaven. It's why I have to completely reject Calvinism because it just doesn't seem to fit. If God wanted all to be saved, why would it be pre-determined to that you go to hell?

This is my simplistic view on this.

1. God wants all of man to be saved.
2. God pre-determined some people to go to hell

Isn't that saying God is a liar or at the very least he is undecided on what He wants? Maybe my simplistic approach is not the way to go, I'm not sure.

[LindaR]

I'm of the same mindset you are, even if they don't witness to one of the "elect" they person will still be saved some other way.

Your second point on what is the point of witnessing is the reason why I've come away from my Calvinistic views because I just don't see the reason why Jesus would tell us to preach the word to all creatures if there were already pre-determined people going to Heaven. It's why I have to completely reject Calvinism because it just doesn't seem to fit. If God wanted all to be saved, why would it be pre-determined to that you go to hell?

This is my simplistic view on this.

1. God wants all of man to be saved.
2. God pre-determined some people to go to hell

Isn't that saying God is a liar or at the very least he is undecided on what He wants? Maybe my simplistic approach is not the way to go, I'm not sure.

Amen Dennis!

Calvinism isn't even logical. God doesn't send anyone to hell...people go to hell by choice when they reject God's gift of salvation in Christ. God prepared hell for the "devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), not for man! God wants all mankind to be saved (2 Peter 3:9), but not all will be saved. I think more will reject and choose hell (and ultimately the lake of fire). Isaiah 5:14 says that "hell hath enlarged herself" and Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14:

Matthew 7:13 (KJV) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 7:14 (KJV) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I don't see how anyone can get saved through the TULIP/Calvinistic system of theology...if everything is "pre-determined", why witness? Edited June 17, 2010 by LindaR

[John81]

From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong anyone out there, a Calvinist would believe that if no one witnessess to that person, they will be still be overwhelmed by the irresistible grace of God one way or another and get saved. In the end, they don't have a choice.

From that mindset, what's the point of witnessing? It would be the enjoyment of spreading God's word, that it's His will that we witness, and the rewards in Heaven.

But you lose the urgency of the matter.


Rom. 10:14, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Hyper-Calvinists might hold this view but I've never heard it expressed by "regular" Calvinists. They believe God has ordained that Christians spread the Gospel in order to reach the elect because that's God's chosen method of bringing the elect to Christ. From what I understand, their concept of "irresistible grace" is that upon hearing the Gospel the elect will then be drawn to Christ.

[anime4christ]

From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong anyone out there, a Calvinist would believe that if no one witnessess to that person, they will be still be overwhelmed by the irresistible grace of God one way or another and get saved. In the end, they don't have a choice.

From that mindset, what's the point of witnessing? It would be the enjoyment of spreading God's word, that it's His will that we witness, and the rewards in Heaven.

But you lose the urgency of the matter.


Rom. 10:14, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

The elect are drawn upon hearing the gospel, but how will they hear it without it being preached to them? How will it be preached, if the preachers are not SENT? God does the sending, so we go and preach, and the elect are drawn while the reprOBate harden their hearts.

[LindaR]

Hyper-Calvinists might hold this view but I've never heard it expressed by "regular" Calvinists. They believe God has ordained that Christians spread the Gospel in order to reach the elect because that's God's chosen method of bringing the elect to Christ. From what I understand, their concept of "irresistible grace" is that upon hearing the Gospel the elect will then be drawn to Christ.

IMHO, hyper-Calvinism is simply a "tag" that the "regular" Calvinists put on those who are a bit more radical in their TULIP theology. I think a Calvinist is a Calvinist and the "hyper" tag is just a smokescreen. That's my on that!

According to Calvinism (hyper or not), irresistible grace means that God's call to salvation is effective and cannot be resisted. But we know from Scripture that God's call to salvation CAN be resisted. God has extended grace to men and it has been rejected by them:

Matthew 23:37 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Acts 7:51 (KJV) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

2 Timothy 3:8 (KJV) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprOBate concerning the faith.

[JerryNumbers]

After reading this I do have a question I could never figure out, why would a Calvinist or anyone that believes in pre-destination go soul winning?

Also, what is the sense of Jesus telling us to go out to all the world and preach the Gospel if people are already pre-destined to go to Heaven or hell? What is the sense of doing any of that?

I understand that in those churches that hold to the Calvinist doctrine they do not have invitation.

[John81]

IMHO, hyper-Calvinism is simply a "tag" that the "regular" Calvinists put on those who are a bit more radical in their TULIP theology. I think a Calvinist is a Calvinist and the "hyper" tag is just a smokescreen. That's my on that!

According to Calvinism (hyper or not), irresistible grace means that God's call to salvation is effective and cannot be resisted. But we know from Scripture that God's call to salvation CAN be resisted. God has extended grace to men and it has been rejected by them:

Matthew 23:37 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Acts 7:51 (KJV) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

2 Timothy 3:8 (KJV) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprOBate concerning the faith.

I don't know. I do know Spurgeon wrote/spoke about this but he called them (hyper-Calvinists) something else back then but I don't recall what. I couldn't even tell you what TULIP stands for without looking it up. I've heard some Calvinists use that online but I've never known one in person who did.

I really don't know about the irresistible grace thing either. I've encountered hypers online who carry on about it (as well as non-Calvinists) but those I've actually met have not.

Perhaps it's because I don't know that many Calvinists in the real world and others are different. The Calvinists I do know, unless they came right out and mentioned it, I don't know how a person would know they were Calvinist. They go door knocking, they send forth missionaries, they preach repentance and turning to Christ for salvation, etc.

In my own life I've encountered far more of those who proclaim we can lose our salvation so we must do something in order to maintain our salvation than I have those who espouse Calvinism.

[John81]

I understand that in those churches that hold to the Calvinist doctrine they do not have invitation.

Hardly any of the churches around here have invitations other than the Assembly of God. The only church I know sort of nearby that has a Calvinist pastor occasionally, but rarely, has an invitation but the pastor generally presents the Gospel and invites folks to accept Christ where they are. That's similar to the approach our pastor takes as well.

[Annie]

Hardly any of the churches around here have invitations other than the Assembly of God. The only church I know sort of nearby that has a Calvinist pastor occasionally, but rarely, has an invitation but the pastor generally presents the Gospel and invites folks to accept Christ where they are. That's similar to the approach our pastor takes as well.

Same here. Usually our pastor will make himself and other men and women in the church available after the service as well, if anyone needs to ask questions or pray with someone.

[JerryNumbers]

Hardly any of the churches around here have invitations other than the Assembly of God. The only church I know sort of nearby that has a Calvinist pastor occasionally, but rarely, has an invitation but the pastor generally presents the Gospel and invites folks to accept Christ where they are. That's similar to the approach our pastor takes as well.

Hyper-Calvinism: A False Doctrine
By Dr. John R. Rice