Calvinistic dispensationalists claming not to be Calvinist?

[Annie]

I think what is totally illogical to the natural mind is the concept that God can KNOW everthing that is going to happen without CAUSING it all to happen. But, just like the Trinity, it just takes faith to be able to beleive it.
Once again; I am neither Arminian, nor Calvinistic, so I have defended neither "side".
But I have dealt with one of the controversial texts (Romans 8) in this thread. If you have any more you would like me to address, please post them and I will.

For the record, heartstrings, I was not referring to you (or to anyone else, specifically) when I said, "I think it is intellectually dishonest to post a bunch of proof texts for one side or the other, while refusing to deal with the texts which seem to raise questions about whatever position is being advocated." That said, I don't really think you've dealt with Romans 8:30. It is not talking about sanctification, but about the whole progression from predestination to glorification: a process that cannot be broken. According to the verse (in context), those whom God has predestined will be called to salvation, justified, and glorified. The confidence that this unbreakable progression is occurring in our lives should, according to this passage, encourage us. Again, human will does fit in somehow, but we don't understand how or where.

[Invicta]

Jerry80871852 you gave a list of proof texts earlier.

One was Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

I have ssspoken on that text e few times, including our Senior's lunch where many are unsaved.

Charle Haddon Spurgeon says we was converted under that text when he attended a chapel in winter and the preacher did not turn up. Eventually someone read that text and had nothing much to say on it, just "LOOK"

Actually, the week before last I put that text om the notice board outside our church.

[JerryNumbers]

How can one go to Heaven believing a false gospel? You said that Calvinism teaches a false gospel, so the logical conclusion is that those believing in a false gospel are headed to hell. Also, on the other thread I started earlier, someone - I believe heartstrings - said that if I am truly saved, God will show me my error and I will convert from Calvinism. That implies that anyone who is a Calvinist at death is lost.

If Calvinists are going to Heaven, however, then why claim that they teach a false gospel, and why so vehemently oppose them? Let me ask you then straight, because I'm sure it's implied in your statements: are Calvinists Christians? Are they going to Heaven or hell?

Perhaps you should refrain from reading between the lines. In fact, I know you should. People who assume things, are usually wrong, just as you are now.

Now I've made this statement many times, I judge no ones salvation, Jesus will be the one who does that, He is much better at that than I or any other human. He can read the heart, I nor no other human can do this, we humans are prone to making mistakes, but Jesus makes no mistakes, His judgments will be perfect.

Now, there are signs that points to a person not being saved, and or being saved.

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Yet even at that, I might witness someone who has back slidden thinking they are lost, when they are not. So i don't ever make such judgments, and I've stated that many times on this board, I've seen a few others state about the same thing. Now, I might say, they're acting like a lost person, but that is as far as I will go.

But I, like other humans, may well, in my haste, miss speak, and write something in a way that some might come to the wrong conclusion of what I mean. That is so easy to do on a message board, and something most of us are guilty of.

If you have hard feeling towards me, that's OK, I have none towards you, I've learned to disagree without the hard feelings, I disagree with the TULIP doctrine, and I feel its false teaching, and its dangerous. If I had any doubts about this issue I would not bodily take a strong stand against it.

I will add this, If a person refuses to state that they have trusted on the name of Jesus Christ, trusted 100% on Him, and are not trusting on anything else, I will accept them as a brother in Christ, yet if they will not do this, them I will not accept them as a brother in Christ.

I might add this, those in our church has heard me say this many times, there will prOBably be saved people in heaven who have attended many different churches, the church does not save a person Jesus does the saving. Although there are many who feel if you are not a member of such and such church, you can not enter heaven.

[anime4christ]

OK, thanks for explaining that, bro Jerry. I have no hard feelings toward you, but I was under the impression that you count Calvinists as unsaved. On another thread, you agreed with one person who called it a doctrine of devils. I find it hard to hold such a view in which you would believe something to be the doctrine of devils and still consider those who hold to it to be Christian. If that's still the case though, I'll just take your word for it. I'd just like to state that I do not agree with that view, but believe that the gospel truly teaches that God does 100% in saving a person, including giving them repentance and faith.

As for trusting Christ 100%, that's exactly what I do, but my trust is faulty; I do, like every other Christian I know, stumble and have doubts sometimes. If my salvation were in any way dependent on the quality of my repentance, my faith, or my trust in God, it would damn me to hell, for it does not match the perfection it ought. That is why I have nothing else to lean on but my Savior; He is the one who saved me and will complete the good work He started in me; that is all I can trust in.

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." - 2 Timothy 2:11-13

[DennisD]

After reading this I do have a question I could never figure out, why would a Calvinist or anyone that believes in pre-destination go soul winning?

Also, what is the sense of Jesus telling us to go out to all the world and preach the Gospel if people are already pre-destined to go to Heaven or hell? What is the sense of doing any of that?

[heartstrings]

After reading this I do have a question I could never figure out, why would a Calvinist or anyone that believes in pre-destination go soul winning?

Also, what is the sense of Jesus telling us to go out to all the world and preach the Gospel if people are already pre-destined to go to Heaven or hell? What is the sense of doing any of that?

Let me just mention that "predestination" is a Biblical doctrine; Calvinists just interpret it wrong.

But carry on!
Good question.

[John81]

After reading this I do have a question I could never figure out, why would a Calvinist or anyone that believes in pre-destination go soul winning?

Also, what is the sense of Jesus telling us to go out to all the world and preach the Gospel if people are already pre-destined to go to Heaven or hell? What is the sense of doing any of that?

From what I've read it's because that's the method God commands. Those who lean Calvinist spread the Gospel to reach the elect while some others spread the Gospel to reach whoever might respond. In both cases those spreading the Gospel believe this is the method God uses to reach others.

I once read a sermon or writing by Spurgeon on this and of course he explained it much better than my quick attempt here.

[DennisD]

Let me just mention that "predestination" is a Biblical doctrine; Calvinists just interpret it wrong.

But carry on!
Good question.

Thanks, I'm pretty ignorant on a lot of the words that are thrown out in some of these threads. Dispenationalists? Arminian or something like that...I have no idea what they mean.

[Brother Rick]

Thanks, I'm pretty ignorant on a lot of the words that are thrown out in some of these threads. Dispenationalists?

There are a lot of ideas of what a dispensationalist is, but at it's base level it's someone who believes God deals with different people in different ways. Example, those before the law, during the law, after the law. Those before the rapture and after the rapture. Adam and Even in the garden verses after the fall. God as person does not change, but the way He deals with people does.

Some assume that a dispensationalist automatically believes different plans of salvation in different ages. This is not true. A dispensationalist just recognises there are differences between different ages. Any Christian that's even opened up the Bible should be able to tell that. It's very important to recognize the differences, but some carry it too far by completly excluding whole books of the Bible, when the word says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable...."

Arminian or something like that...I have no idea what they mean.

To simplify, a "Calvinist" is going to believe that some are predestinated to be saved and go to heaven, and that those hand picked by God really don't have all that much choice in the matter. And in a sense, they are eternally secure.

An Armenian believes we all have free will to choose to be saved. Once saved, you better stay holy so you don't lose it.

My pastor always says, "I'm an Armenian before the cross, and a Calvinist after it." Edited June 16, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

Predestination

1. The act of predestining or the condition of being predestined.


2. Theology
a. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
b. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
c. The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.
3. Destiny; fate.

predestination - previous determination as if by destiny or fate
destiny, fate - an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future

[heartstrings]

Predestination

1. The act of predestining or the condition of being predestined.


2. Theology
a. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
b. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
c. The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.
3. Destiny; fate.

predestination - previous determination as if by destiny or fate
destiny, fate - an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future

Yeah but what does it mean in the Bible?

[John81]

Yeah but what does it mean in the Bible?

Not sure of your question but every dictionary I've looked at says predestinate/predestination basically means pre-determined.

[anime4christ]

After reading this I do have a question I could never figure out, why would a Calvinist or anyone that believes in pre-destination go soul winning?

Also, what is the sense of Jesus telling us to go out to all the world and preach the Gospel if people are already pre-destined to go to Heaven or hell? What is the sense of doing any of that?

Many reasons: It is fulfilling Christ's command, we have compassion for people, it gives us joy to be used in God's work, we were predestined to do it. The last one might be funny, but it's logical.

The reverse of this question, however, is: If people have complete autonomy (aka absolute/libertarian free will), then is not the salvation of other's dependent on your success or failure in bringing the gospel to them? You have the power then to witness to one or not to, and their salvation is in your hands. Makes you sound powerful, like a god.

Now, I know you will OBject to such a notion, but I will also OBject to the notion that preaching the gospel is pointless in light of predestination, so that makes us even.

[anime4christ]

To simplify, a "Calvinist" is going to believe that some are predestinated to be saved and go to heaven, and that those hand picked by God really don't have all that much choice in the matter. And in a sense, they are eternally secure.

An Armenian believes we all have free will to choose to be saved. Once saved, you better stay holy so you don't lose it.

Um, almost, but not the most accurate summary. On the Arminianism, you summarized hyper-Arminianism, which is really more Pelagian than Arminian. I posted a summary of the different systems earlier, and I'll quote them again here:

Here's a summary of the differences between the systems:

Pelagianism (Catholicism) - Man is born sinless, but follows Adam's bad example and sins, and is therefore headed to hell. Jesus came to show an example of how to live a good life. Man needs to follow Jesus' good example in order to be saved.

Semi-Pelagianism - Man is born sinless, but follows Adam's bad example and becomes a sinner, and is therefore headed to hell. Jesus came to pay the fine for all human sin. Man can therefore choose to believe in Christ's sacrifice, and by that get saved.

Arminianism (especially Wesleyan) - Man is born sinful and depraved and cannot do anything to save himself. Jesus came to pay the fine for all human sin*. God gives enough grace to every man to enable them to make a choice for Christ despite their depravity, and by that they may be saved.

Calvinism - Man is born sinful and depraved and cannot do anything to save himself. Jesus came to pay the fine for the sins of the elect**. God gives irresistible grace to the elect by which they are saved.

*Some Arminians who believe in an omniscient God can also conclude that Jesus only atoned for those who He knew would choose Him in a saving way, while purchasing common grace for the rest, as some variations of Amyraldism teaches.

**Amyraldism also states that Jesus paid for all human sin, but only applies the atonement and grace to the elect. Some variations of Calvinism/Amyraldism also state that Jesus paid for all human sin to purchase the common grace by which sinners live here on earth (because we do not deserve to live for even a second more and it is by His grace that we do), and purchase saving grace for the elect.
____________________

Implications of the systems:

Pelagianism - Since a person has the choice to follow a good example or a bad example, they can go back and forth between salvation and reprOBation many times in their life and it is uncertain whether they will be saved until the very end.

Semi-Pelagianism - Since a person has the capacity to choose Christ, he also has the capacity to reject him later and lose his salvation.

Arminianism - Because God gives the grace by which a person can choose to get saved or not, it is unclear as to whether or not the choice remains to reject Christ or not after salvation. In theory, Arminius believed that some Bible passages suggest that one can reject Christ and apostatize, but in practice he did not believe a true believer could ever do such a thing. Therefore, he left the issue open because he died before he could study it in more detail.

Calvinism - Since God does 100% of the saving work, there is nothing a Christian can do to lose his salvation. He is eternally secure because God chose him from the foundation of the world.

[Brother Rick]

Um, almost, but not the most accurate summary. On the Arminianism, you summarized hyper-Arminianism, which is really more Pelagian than Arminian. I posted a summary of the different systems earlier, and I'll quote them again here:

Good post!