Calvinistic dispensationalists claming not to be Calvinist?

[heartstrings]

But you already told me earlier that you disagree with only one point of Arminianism, the one Arminius himself was unsure of: the possibility of apostasy. How does that make you not fit the Arminian label, whether or not you actually studied Arminius' teachings? So far, I haven't studied Calvin's teachings, but my view of soteriology fits his, and you call me Calvinist. That's a double standard. Pretty much, you are saying "I am not Arminian even though I agree with 4 out of 5 points, but you are a Calvinist regardless."

Simple

A murderer walks on two legs, breathes air, eats food, talks.......and kills people
You also walk on two legs, breathe air, eat food, and talk.....does that make you a murderer?

If I believe four (4) simple truths that #1 sin is wrong, #2 we are all sinners #3 Jesus paid for all sins #4. I'm eternally secure and call myself a "Bible believer", t somebody tells me that Arminius believed all of these except the last one, how does that make me Arminian if the first three are true and #4 is false. But on the other hand, if I did beleive the last one, that would make me Arminian in theology would it not? You seem to say that you believe in "limited atonement". If you do, you believe that false doctrine, and that doctrine ties to the other 3; "total depravity". "unconditional election", and "irresistable grace". That makes you Calvinistic in your theology.

About atonement, are you telling me that there will be fully forgiven sinners in hell because they refused to believe even though that was atoned for? That makes absolutely no sense. The Bible says that people will be judged according to their works. How can they be judged according to works which were forgiven them and atoned for?

1 John 2:2 And he(Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Look up that word "propitiation", it's similar to atonement. What the verse basicly means is that Jesus paid the penalty and satisfied God's righteous demand for the WHOLE WORLD. The penalty for the whole world has been satisfied, paid in full by Jesus Christ.

If the warden were to walk into the death row wing of a prison and announce to the condemned inmates "I have a document which offers a full pardon, It's available for every single one of you if you will just accept it. There will be buses waiting outside to take you all home to your families....after you have accepted your free pardon, you are free to go: or you can reject it and stay on DEATH ROW....the choice is yours"

[anime4christ]

Here's a summary of the differences between the systems:

Pelagianism (Catholicism) - Man is born sinless, but follows Adam's bad example and sins, and is therefore headed to hell. Jesus came to show an example of how to live a good life. Man needs to follow Jesus' good example in order to be saved.

Semi-Pelagianism - Man is born sinless, but follows Adam's bad example and becomes a sinner, and is therefore headed to hell. Jesus came to pay the fine for all human sin. Man can therefore choose to believe in Christ's sacrifice, and by that get saved.

Arminianism (especially Wesleyan) - Man is born sinful and depraved and cannot do anything to save himself. Jesus came to pay the fine for all human sin*. God gives enough grace to every man to enable them to make a choice for Christ despite their depravity, and by that they may be saved.

Calvinism - Man is born sinful and depraved and cannot do anything to save himself. Jesus came to pay the fine for the sins of the elect**. God gives irresistible grace to the elect by which they are saved.

*Some Arminians who believe in an omniscient God can also conclude that Jesus only atoned for those who He knew would choose Him in a saving way, while purchasing common grace for the rest, as some variations of Amyraldism teaches.

**Amyraldism also states that Jesus paid for all human sin, but only applies the atonement and grace to the elect. Some variations of Calvinism/Amyraldism also state that Jesus paid for all human sin to purchase the common grace by which sinners live here on earth (because we do not deserve to live for even a second more and it is by His grace that we do), and purchase saving grace for the elect.
____________________

Implications of the systems:

Pelagianism - Since a person has the choice to follow a good example or a bad example, they can go back and forth between salvation and reprOBation many times in their life and it is uncertain whether they will be saved until the very end.

Semi-Pelagianism - Since a person has the capacity to choose Christ, he also has the capacity to reject him later and lose his salvation.

Arminianism - Because God gives the grace by which a person can choose to get saved or not, it is unclear as to whether or not the choice remains to reject Christ or not after salvation. In theory, Arminius believed that some Bible passages suggest that one can reject Christ and apostatize, but in practice he did not believe a true believer could ever do such a thing. Therefore, he left the issue open because he died before he could study it in more detail.

Calvinism - Since God does 100% of the saving work, there is nothing a Christian can do to lose his salvation. He is eternally secure because God chose him from the foundation of the world.

[JerryNumbers]

No double standard. Calvinist is plain and simple false teaching. The Bible is extremely clear on this issue, whosoever will can be saved, God has condemned no one from birth to hell, its their choice, and He respects it. Although those who reject Jesus will spend eternity in hell.

[anime4christ]

No double standard. Calvinist is plain and simple false teaching. The Bible is extremely clear on this issue, whosoever will can be saved, God has condemned no one from birth to hell, its their choice, and He respects it. Although those who reject Jesus will spend eternity in hell.

How so if you post articles and I can't? Or mine are irrelevant while your's aren't? It would be fair to at least read my article before claiming it contains lies.

[John81]

All engaged here proclaim they are Bible believers and overall everyone says Scripture is clear as to what they are posting. Given that everyone posting here isn't in agreement it seems OBvious that Scripture isn't easily clear on this and needs expounding upon. This is borne out by the fact millions of Christians hold to differing views on this very topic and there are even differing views among those who would seem, on the surface, to hold the same view.

In order to validate any position one must put forth some effort and work at being clear, with patience, so others can understand. It should also be remembered that not only are the ones discussing this topic reading this, but so are others who may be looking for that one explanation in a post the Holy Ghost can use so they can see the truth.

[Invicta]

I see that alot...people who teach and hold to calvinsitic doctrine and then claim they are not calvinist? Why is that? And Calvinistic dispensationalist? What's that? What happened to just being a Christian...a Bible believer?
the same as "limited atonement". It's a different label but the meaning is the same; that Jesus didn't didn't die for everyone. And if you believe that, then the rest of the first 4 points tie together. So yeah, if you beleive that one, I would say you're "calvinist" or if you prefer "reformed"... However you choose to label it, it's false doctrine. I can't understand it....people who hold to Arminian doctrine(losing salvation etc) and those who hold to "reformed" "calvinistic" doctrines of grace" doctrine(whatever label) can't let go of their false doctrine. I'm thankful to God that I was saved in a church that teaches sound doctrine. But **notice**...to you folks you still hold to these false doctrines, God wants you to know the truth as well.......Jesus died for everybody, Jesus loves the WORLD, God gave His only son for WHOSOEVER WILL. It is His divine will for EVERYONE to be saved. It is AGANST His will for ANYONE to go to Hell. 2 Peter 3:9. Do you know Him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_(limited_view)

If Jesus died for everyone, then everyone is saved (Universalism) If Jesus died for everyone and everyone is not saved then he was a failure.

Jesus died for the Sheep.
He died for the church and gave himself for her.

This is not Calvinism, it is scripture. Read Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will

[anime4christ]

Also, why do these threads always have to be hijacked? It turns into a Calvinist bashing thread when the original question had nothing to do whether Calvinism was correct or not. Can't we just discuss these questions without getting all emotional and defensive and then just bashing the Calvinists?

[anime4christ]

All engaged here proclaim they are Bible believers and overall everyone says Scripture is clear as to what they are posting. Given that everyone posting here isn't in agreement it seems OBvious that Scripture isn't easily clear on this and needs expounding upon. This is borne out by the fact millions of Christians hold to differing views on this very topic and there are even differing views among those who would seem, on the surface, to hold the same view.

In order to validate any position one must put forth some effort and work at being clear, with patience, so others can understand. It should also be remembered that not only are the ones discussing this topic reading this, but so are others who may be looking for that one explanation in a post the Holy Ghost can use so they can see the truth.

Thanks John. I really appreciate Christians who can fellowship regardless of their positions on doctrine and who can discuss things calmly whether they agree or disagree on these issues.

[JerryNumbers]

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36 (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:47 (KJV)

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:25-26 (KJV)

44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 12:44-45 (KJV)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 (KJV)

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:22 (KJV)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 (KJV)

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Acts 8:37-38 (KJV)

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:30-31 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13 (KJV)

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:16 (KJV)

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:25 (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:1 (KJV)

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:11-12 (KJV)

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32 (KJV)

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:8 (KJV)

Yes, the teachings that God's grace is limited to a chosen few is false teachings, its not in the Bible. Its so easy to disapprove, there are so many very plain simple verses that clearly proves God's grace is offered to whosoever will. I don't need an article written by man to prove it, the Bible is sufficient. To disprove it, one has to take verses out of context, verses that do not clearly prove God's grace is limited to a chosen few. No double standard.

[heartstrings]

If Jesus died for everyone, then everyone is saved (Universalism) If Jesus died for everyone and everyone is not saved then he was a failure.

Jesus died for the Sheep.
He died for the church and gave himself for her.

This is not Calvinism, it is scripture. Read Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will

Jesus died for "whosoever will"....and Jesus never fails.

[CPR]

For the record I'm undecided about what I think about Calvinism, but thought y'all might enjoy this picture for a laugh...

[Wilchbla]

Also, why do these threads always have to be hijacked? It turns into a Calvinist bashing thread when the original question had nothing to do whether Calvinism was correct or not. Can't we just discuss these questions without getting all emotional and defensive and then just bashing the Calvinists?

Calvinism should be bashed at every opportunity since it is one of the worse heresies to effect the church and it has really done a number on many one time vibrant, soul winning Baptist churches.

[anime4christ]

@Jerry##: I can quote a lot of verses too. Somehow yours are not out of context, but mine will be... I just give up there, it's no use talking when you don't listen.

Calvinism should be bashed at every opportunity since it is one of the worse heresies to effect the church and it has really done a number on many one time vibrant, soul winning Baptist churches.

Hmm, can I quote that? It's one of the most interesting things I've seen in a long time. lol. If you haven't looked well into history, most of the great revivals we've had were started by guess who? Calvinists (well, actually by God, but guess through whom He chose to do it). I think bashing Calvinism at every opportunity is not what are focus should be, but preaching the Gospel at every opportunity should be (and there are more Calvinists I know of who do this than Arminians). Edited June 12, 2010 by anime4christ

[anime4christ]

For the record I'm undecided about what I think about Calvinism, but thought y'all might enjoy this picture for a laugh...

haha, nice. Don't be a hyper-calvinist.

[Annie]

As I look at the comments in this thread, I'm finding that they are fairly typical of discussions like this. I think it is impossible for any of us to accomplish what wiser men couldn't and resolve the Calvinist/Arminian debate once and for all.

Some biblical facts are these:
"Whosoever will" may come.
It is God which worketh in us both to will and to do...
God's church is called "the elect."
No man can come unless the Father draws him.
Christ died for the sins of the world.
Those who are saved were predestined to choose Christ.
(More, of course. These are just a few.)

Paradoxes abound. Who are we to think we can understand all mysteries regarding soteriology? I'm with CPR: undecided, and likely to remain so, since my small brain cannot reconcile these things. I'm content to know that I serve a God who has already done so, and I'm willing to bet that mere men, with their finite minds, will never be able to agree on these issues. I'm not even sure that "Calvinism" or "Arminianism" is a proper way to frame the issue, anyway. Both are man-made systems, and neither one by itself can express all that is true about salvation. It's just too big a concept...yet fortunately God has made the meat of the issue simple enough for a child (Calvinist or Arminian) to understand and accept. I'm content to trust and rest in Christ's work for me, and marvel at His wisdom and grace. I don't have to understand everything about it.