Discussion Topic - Can Lying Or Stealing Ever Be Acceptable?

[John81]

All the world can form an opinion but Scripture is clear with regards to lying and God never tells us in Scripture that during times of war we may commit sinful acts without it being sin.

God also never rewards one for sin but since we are all sinners any reward we receive from God is by His mercy and grace. We can't simply impart our limited human thoughts into situations and determine that the situation determines whether sins are sins or not.

Just as man makes rules of war and then violates them, so man violates the commands of God during times of war and outside of times of war as well. A Christian is to stand apart from the wicked. A Christian, even in the military, even in times of war, should stand apart from his unsaved counterparts. God has drawn lines we as Christians ought not to cross regardless of the situation or circumstances. If our trust and faith is in God then we know we can count on God to work His will in our situation and circumstances as we fully OBey him, refusing to give into the temptation to sin.

In the OT we can look to Joseph or Daniel and see where they stood faithfully, trusting in God and that God worked His perfect will in their lives. They didn't resort to lies in order to try and improve their circumstances or the situations others faced. In the case of Daniel, he stood faithful during a time of war and his long time as a prisoner of war.

[John81]

The Jewish midwives is another VERY good example...thank you.

That has already been addressed. The midwives were not rewarded for telling a lie; they were rewarded for fearing God more than Pharoah.

God cannot proclaim that lying is an abomination and that ALL who lie are sinners and declare we are not to lie and then turn around and reward lying.

[Revelation3:20]

That has already been addressed. The midwives were not rewarded for telling a lie; they were rewarded for fearing God more than Pharoah.

God cannot proclaim that lying is an abomination and that ALL who lie are sinners and declare we are not to lie and then turn around and reward lying.

John, is being intentionally misleading the same as a lie in your opinion?

[John81]

John, is being intentionally misleading the same as a lie in your opinion?

I'm not certain as to what you are saying/asking.

A lie is a lie. I would have never expected there to be any question on a Baptist board as to what a lie is and hear the idea that some lies are okay based upon the situation.

[Revelation3:20]

I'm not certain as to what you are saying/asking.

A lie is a lie. I would have never expected there to be any question on a Baptist board as to what a lie is and hear the idea that some lies are okay based upon the situation.

I am asking if you believe it is wrong to tell someone something that is true, but in such a way that you know the person will misled. In other words what is sometimes called a half truth. Is a half truth a lie in your opinion? Edited April 18, 2010 by Revelation3:20

[John81]

I am asking if you believe it is wrong to tell someone something that is true, but in such a way that you know the person will misled. In other words what is sometimes called a half truth. Is a half truth a lie in your opinion?

I'm still not positive I fully understand but if a statement is a partial lie then that makes the statement a lie because it's not the truth.

[Revelation3:20]

I'm still not positive I fully understand but if a statement is a partial lie then that makes the statement a lie because it's not the truth.

Ok, let me give an illustration. Say you are going fishing as you leave the house someone asks where you are going. For some reason which is irrelevant to the illustration you don't want to tell them. Therefore you say your going to the store. Your do plan to stop at the store before you go fishing but your primary intent is to go fishing. You said nothing untrue but you did mislead them. Some preachers would say that is just as wrong as an outright lie but I would disagree. BTW the illustration is a entirely fictional example.

[Revelation3:20]

Regarding the topic of "is stealing ever ok" What are your thoughts on Judges 6:25-27? Gideon took the bullock of his father at Gods command but without his fathers permission and sacrificed it to God. Compare that to Proverbs 28:24.

[JerryNumbers]

As long as its the right kind of lie. And where does lies come from? Not from God!

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:3 (KJV)


That's just great, after we read this it does not sound so great.

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

So after we are saved, even after Jesus more or less tells all of His brothers and sisters, to go and sin no more, its OK, if its the right sin.

Pr 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Prov 12:15 (KJV)

I've never seen so many professing Christians stand up for lying, that is stand up for sinning, amazing.

12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isaiah 59:12-15 (KJV)
6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.
7 The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.
8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.
Isaiah 32:6-8 (KJV)

11 And of whom hast thou been afraid or feared, that thou hast lied, and hast not remembered me, nor laid it to thy heart? have not I held my peace even of old, and thou fearest me not?
12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.
Isaiah 57:11-12 (KJV)

36 Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.
37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
Psalms 78:36-37 (KJV)

6 I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the LORD.
Psalms 31:6 (KJV)

18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.
Psalms 31:18 (KJV)

3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.
Psalms 52:3 (KJV)

12 For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak.
Psalms 59:12 (KJV)

29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
Psalms 119:29 (KJV)

163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.
Psalms 119:163 (KJV)

2 Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, and from a deceitful tongue.
Psalms 120:2 (KJV)

16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Prov 6:16-19 (KJV)

22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.
Prov 12:22 (KJV)

5 A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.
Prov 13:5 (KJV)

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44 (KJV)

7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.
Prov 17:7 (KJV)

6 The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.
Prov 21:6 (KJV)

28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.
Prov 26:28 (KJV)

No, only in the mind of sinful man can lying be justified, it cannot be justified anywhere in the Holy Scriptures.

[Revelation3:20]

Jerry80871852, by that long post are you expressing your belief that being intentionally misleading like in the illustration I used is a lie or was your post just a collection of general OBservations and scripture verses regarding lying?

[Annie]

All the world can form an opinion but Scripture is clear with regards to lying and God never tells us in Scripture that during times of war we may commit sinful acts without it being sin.

What about killing a person, John? It is definitely a "sinful act." What, then, makes it all right to kill a person in a war? God never tells us in Scripture that during times of war we may commit the sin of murder. How do you justify this? Is killing in wartime a sin? Why or why not, according to Scripture? (I'm not talking about killing directly commanded by God as the Israelites conquered the promised land, or as kings of Israel violently slaughtered and cut off the foreskins of their enemies. I'm pretty sure most of us do not condone the dashing out of infants' brains or the disembowelment of pregnant women just because God commanded it at some point in history.)

God also never rewards one for sin but since we are all sinners any reward we receive from God is by His mercy and grace. We can't simply impart our limited human thoughts into situations and determine that the situation determines whether sins are sins or not.

Right...that's why I don't think what Rahab and the midwives did was a sin...because God rewarded them for their actions. Scripture tells us this.
I'm not into situational ethics at all...I'm just saying that I don't think there is Scriptural support for the idea that the same rules apply to wartime as peacetime, or that there is not a difference between "personal," "neighbor-directed" acts and "impersonal" acts. It appears that both context and motive come into play here...that is, if you say that there is a difference between shooting a soldier in battle and shooting a civilian in his home.

Just as man makes rules of war and then violates them, so man violates the commands of God during times of war and outside of times of war as well. A Christian is to stand apart from the wicked. A Christian, even in the military, even in times of war, should stand apart from his unsaved counterparts. God has drawn lines we as Christians ought not to cross regardless of the situation or circumstances. If our trust and faith is in God then we know we can count on God to work His will in our situation and circumstances as we fully OBey him, refusing to give into the temptation to sin.

Where in Scripture are the "rules of war" drawn up? If Scripture does not delineate "rules of war," then why do you think it is all right for a child of God to kill during those times? Solomon notes in the book of Ecclesiastes that "there is a time to kill" (not even specifying when that time is), showing that there are proper exceptions to God's law, "Thou shalt not kill." Do you believe that spying is wrong? That leaking wrong information to enemy spies is wrong? That ambushing an enemy is wrong? That hiding Jews was wrong for the ten Booms? All of these activities involve deception and/or outright lies that would be unthinkable in other, normal-life scenarios.

In the OT we can look to Joseph or Daniel and see where they stood faithfully, trusting in God and that God worked His perfect will in their lives. They didn't resort to lies in order to try and improve their circumstances or the situations others faced. In the case of Daniel, he stood faithful during a time of war and his long time as a prisoner of war.

Neither of these men were in a "time of war" scenario. Daniel was held captive against his will, but there was no fighting going on...Babylon held absolute power in the region at that time. Any fighting took place far away from where Daniel was, and was one-sided. God's agenda was not that the Israelites have victory against their enemies, as it was in Egypt and Jericho. IOW, Joseph and Daniel were in completely different situations than Rahab and the midwives. (And I've never thought that "resort[ing] to lies in order to try and improve their circumstances" is a proper response at all. That's not what the midwives and Rahab did, anyway.)

To sum up, I would challenge anyone who makes a distinction between wartime killing and peacetime killing to explain how they can do this...IOW, what makes these two acts different. Also, I would challenge those who believe that spying, leaking false information, ambushing, hiding Jews, and other similarly deceptive tactics are permissible during wartime to explain why what the midwives and Rahab did was sinful. Edited April 18, 2010 by Annie

[JerryNumbers]

Revelation, My intent it, its never right to do wrong to do right. And that God is very clear about His feelings towards lying, He is against it.

Abram is a very good example of that with his half lie, it clearly showed that he lacked faith in God, and it cause much trouble in Pharaohs house. And what a sight, Pharaoh gave Abram quite a talking to about having lied to him. What a shame God's child gets preached to by and unsaved man about all the trouble his lying caused him, that means Abram witness was very poor that day. Can't say more right now, got to get to bed.

Annie, If you kill someone in self defense, its not murder, and its not held against you.

God even had cities of refuge, do a study on them.

Yet, that's really off topic, why not start another topic on that issue?

[rancher824]

Actually, since Daniel has been brought up, how many have caught that Daniel actually used what I would call deception to get his way?? To serve God of course!! Look carefully at verses 8 - 14 of chapter 1. Daniel asked the prince of eunichs to be given something else, verse 8. The prince of eunichs gives him a definite NO. Daniel does not go up the chain of command, but down. He goes to Melzar set in place by the prince of eunichs. He askes him for 10 days. Now to me he had been given a direct order from the king, he was given a definite No to be excused. Now how many think Daniel believed it was ok with The king or the prince for him to be taken off the diet? Even for the ten days? How many would be angry at their children if they asked the babysitter to let them eat something different than what mom and dad said for them to eat for a few days and let's see if Mom and Dad can tell??? It was in our thinking deceptive. What is different between deception and lying? Either Daniel deceived Melzar, or asked Melzar to deceive the prince!!!

[Annie]

Revelation, My intent it, its never right to do wrong to do right. And that God is very clear about His feelings towards lying, He is against it.

I agree, Jerry. I don't think that Rahab and the midwives "did wrong to do right," any more than spying, ambushing, leaking false info to enemy spies, or hiding Jews is "doing wrong to do right." Wartime is different than peacetime, IMO (and apparently also in the opinion of most others on here).

Abram is a very good example of that with his half lie, it clearly showed that he lacked faith in God, and it cause much trouble in Pharaohs house. And what a sight, Pharaoh gave Abram quite a talking to about having lied to him. What a shame God's child gets preached to by and unsaved man about all the trouble his lying caused him, that means Abram witness was very poor that day. Can't say more right now, got to get to bed.

Couldn't agree more, Jerry. Scripture is very clear that what Abram did was wrong. God was not pleased with him, and said so unequivocally. Not so with Rahab and the midwives.

Annie, If you kill someone in self defense, its not murder, and its not held against you.

Once again, I totally agree. This is another exception (expressed in Scripture) to the law, "Thou shalt not kill." This fact actually strengthens my opinion. (But wartime killing is not self-defense.)

God even had cities of refuge, do a study on them.

Yes, I've done that, and I agree with you. Again, these kinds of things are what strengthen the possibility that context and motive make a difference when it comes to certain acts. Could it be that since "killing" is not "murder" in certain contexts, "being deceptive" is not "lying" in certain contexts? Edited April 18, 2010 by Annie

[John81]

I'm truly amazed at some of the reasoning here which skirts the clear Word of God.

As I prayed about this issue last night I was continually pointed to what the Word of God says about lying and the fact that if folks won't believe that there is nothing more that can be said.

Scripture has been posted clearly showing that God calls lying not only a sin but also an abomination. Scripture has also been posted showing that all who lie are guilty sinners.

Another point is that we can't take historical accounts outside of Scripture and try to use them to interpret Scripture. First of all, those accounts ae not Scripture and secondly we can't know whether those involved were doing the will of God, doing things right, doing what they should have or not regardless of how man views them today.

Daniel didn't lie with regards to food. The king gave a general order that all be fed the palace food. To eat such food would be to violate the law of God. Daniel took the issue to the man responsible for him. This man was his direct superior. There was no lie involved.

Consdier when the king ordered that no one pray but to him or that all must bow to his statue when the music played. Daniel and his three friends didn't lie in any fashion here either. Daniel continued his practice of praying in front of his window and the three friends stood boldly in faith as all others bowed.

What further can be said? Scripture is very clear that lying is a sin and verses have been provided. By the reasoning being used to excuse lying one could also reason it's okay for a variety of other clear commands of God to be ignored because of certain circumstances.

In any event, for those confused about the issue of killing I suggest you read the first 5 or 6 books of the OT. God puts forth the difference between an accidental killing, a defensive killing and killing that is referred to as murder. It should also be noted that God denied David building His temple because David was a man of war.

A careful study of the very high standards Christians are called to live by would be good for all of us. God calls us to holiness, to perfection, to Christlikeness. We know we can't achieve such on our own or in this life but God calls us to submit to Christ and pursue this goal with all our being.