A few questions on predestination

[Psalms18_28]

If anyone want to study about hardened of the heart, people should study about the finger of God (or God's finger)

Who is the author of this book?

[rancher824]

As a IFB I don't "shy away" from the question, I and others discard the whole notion that actions must be predetermined in order for God to have foreknowledge as false. Predetermination and foreknowledge are two totally different things. For example, I make this post, I decide to make this post and God did not predetermine that I would make it. I chose to make it and that was my free will choice. The fact that God is omniscient and knew from before time began everything that would happen and every choice I would ever make does not mean that he predetermined it to be so. It simply means God is greater than time and is the Alpha and Omega.

I agree with Seth that we are not shying away from the question. As I stated before God pronounced what was going to happen. And due to prayer he changed and added 15 years to a mans life. Did God predetermin that he was going to change his mind? Did he have his prophet lie? If all things are predestinated to the minute as calvinism stated, one of these questions would have to be answered yes. If the first, why would he determin before time to change his mind after sending down a sentance? If the latter, that would make God a liar, and we have no hope! As to making it where satan could not fall, the way I see it is God made his creation because he wanted something to love and to be loved by. A rOBot or computer loves nothing. They do as they are told. God wanted us to love him. So he gave us free will. To let us and the angels choose.

[Jerry]

In Jeremiah 18 and Ezekiel 33, God predetermined consequences based on man's actions. He did not force man to act in a certain way - but determined what would happen with man's choices. Romans 8:28 teaches that He works out all things to the good of those that love Him - ie. He turns the evil around, but that nowhere indicates that He moved those people to do evil in the first place. Just like Joseph's brethren did evil to him, and God worked upon the situation so their evil was limited (they didn't kill Joseph as they first intended) and was in control of what worked out of the situation (though not causing the situation in the first place). The same thing goes with Christ being betrayed and going to the cross - it was God's will for Jesus to shed His blood and die on the cross - but God attributed the moral wrong to Judas' own choices. God didn't force Judas to betray Christ, but moved in that situation to have His will done in spite on man's choices. Man has free will - but it is not unlimited, and that does not mean God does not step in and overrule at times or change things - but that also does not mean God is personally responsible for everything either.

God is at work and sovereignly in control - and part of that sovereignty is knowing all things and all possible ways of working out all things, knowing what to allow or cause and working all according to His will, and hindering or stopping what goes against His purposes/will. Foreknowledge does not mean He foreordained all things to happen, but that He is over all still in control, working as needed in His children's lives, in His perfect wisdom knowing all things (and all possible outcomes) and choosing the best outcome (in light of eternity), and in His perfect power working it out according to His plan.

The only contradiction is when one side or the other tries to remove either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man. There are NO Bible passages that teach God predetermines who would be saved and who would not be, but predetermines how He will work in His childrens' lives - which is a totally different issue altogether.

[JerryNumbers]

God is the Potter, but He never imposes Him Self on anyone, He goes to work as the Potter, only on those who yield to Him.

A very good questions for all of us, are we yielding to Him? Plus are we trying to make Him into something He is not. And like Seth said, God imposes limits on His Self. he desires our love, but he does not make anyone love Him, he offers an invitation to anyone who will invite Him in.

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Re 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Yes, the God of the Bible sends no one to hell, except those who refuse the offer He has made to all through His son Jesus. Those who wind up in hell can never say God did not give them an opportunity, that He sent them straight to hell and never offered them that precious free gift. Sad to say, many make Him out to be that sort of God.

Actually, if the doctrine some of you brought here was true, it would totally contradict the above verses, and we could not trust none of the Bible.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

If Bible truths are hid from anyone, its smiply becasue they let it be hid. They cannot blame God nor Jesus.

[anime4christ]

In Jeremiah 18 and Ezekiel 33, God predetermined consequences based on man's actions. He did not force man to act in a certain way - but determined what would happen with man's choices. Romans 8:28 teaches that He works out all things to the good of those that love Him - ie. He turns the evil around, but that nowhere indicates that He moved those people to do evil in the first place. Just like Joseph's brethren did evil to him, and God worked upon the situation so their evil was limited (they didn't kill Joseph as they first intended) and was in control of what worked out of the situation (though not causing the situation in the first place). The same thing goes with Christ being betrayed and going to the cross - it was God's will for Jesus to shed His blood and die on the cross - but God attributed the moral wrong to Judas' own choices. God didn't force Judas to betray Christ, but moved in that situation to have His will done in spite on man's choices. Man has free will - but it is not unlimited, and that does not mean God does not step in and overrule at times or change things - but that also does not mean God is personally responsible for everything either.

God is at work and sovereignly in control - and part of that sovereignty is knowing all things and all possible ways of working out all things, knowing what to allow or cause and working all according to His will, and hindering or stopping what goes against His purposes/will. Foreknowledge does not mean He foreordained all things to happen, but that He is over all still in control, working as needed in His children's lives, in His perfect wisdom knowing all things (and all possible outcomes) and choosing the best outcome (in light of eternity), and in His perfect power working it out according to His plan.

The only contradiction is when one side or the other tries to remove either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man. There are NO Bible passages that teach God predetermines who would be saved and who would not be, but predetermines how He will work in His childrens' lives - which is a totally different issue altogether.

Very good explanation, Jerry. At the present moment, there are a few points you mentioned I still need to think about and research, but overall, I believe mostly the same as you outlined here (this thread OBviously contains the points I don't agree on right now). I believe we do have free will, but it is more limited than many like to think. I believe our plans are only fulfilled when they coincide with God's, because Jesus said that not even a hair on our heads can fall to the ground without His will (which means God's will is there even when we get a hair cut or start going bald, lol), therefore I still believe God is in control of every event in all our lives, even the most insignificant events. If He is in control of such little things, is He not more so in major events?

[Reformation Man35]

Very good explanation, Jerry. At the present moment, there are a few points you mentioned I still need to think about and research, but overall, I believe mostly the same as you outlined here (this thread OBviously contains the points I don't agree on right now). I believe we do have free will, but it is more limited than many like to think. I believe our plans are only fulfilled when they coincide with God's, because Jesus said that not even a hair on our heads can fall to the ground without His will (which means God's will is there even when we get a hair cut or start going bald, lol), therefore I still believe God is in control of every event in all our lives, even the most insignificant events. If He is in control of such little things, is He not more so in major events?

I have to agree. I would also like to add, how can we ever lean on any of the promises of God when others propose that man's will is even remotely co equal with God. This idea is unbiblical and heritical at the least. How can we ever believe that anything is ever going in accordance with God's plan if man's decisions are derailing or delaying the second coming of the Lord Jesus? For that matter, how can any of the words of Jesus such as not worrying about tomorrow comfort us if he can't even interfere in his own creation? So something has to give. It's either man's will or God's? Also, what about our third party? What about the dark spiritual forces at work? Satan and his demon's? Is their will "battling" with Gods will? So who ultimatly has the last say? I think this whole debate is silly. For those of you who want to cling to the human will, its silly. God is the one in control despite out flimsy "free will". I would much rather have the creator of the world guiding me, heck if needs be, take the driver seat, Lord knows He can make the better decisions. I can take comfort and rest knowing that despite man, God is in total control, guiding His will towards the second coming of our Savior. Chew on that for awhile.

[Jerry]

Chew on what? A desire to throw out Bible passages? No one said man's will is supreme - but the Bible teaches God's sovereignty AND man's free will. It is not one or the other. Certainly, there is a limit to man's free will; and God can hinder man, stop man, counteract what he does - overturn his evil for good, etc.

If God didn't let man make any choices at all, then in your view, God is responsible for all of mankind's sin and rebellion - which would be a pretty evil conclusion.

Is God in control of men's struggles with pornography - or is that man making a free will (oh, there's that word again!!) choice apart from God, with God convicting and enlightening man to its evil bondage, and giving him deliverance from that sinful bondage when he repents of it and trusts in God's promises to help him escape from the corruption of the world through the lusts of his flesh?

[JerryNumbers]

1st, I will say this, you have no tact, saying "Chew on this."


According to your doctrine, in the garden, Adam and Eve had no choice, they had to partake of the forbidden, for they were under the will of God and did not have free will to chose & or not chose to partake of the forbidden. And every since every single evil, sin, that has been done has been directed by God, for those doing the evil, sin, cannot make their own choice. On the same front, everything done that is good, man did at the direction of God, for he has not the free will to do good.

Plus, every person who has accepted Christ as Savior, did so only because God willed them to, and every person who does not, does not because God will them from birth to suffer in the depths of hell forever.

While remembering there is no sin in God, and your creating a God who has respect of person which He forbids.

And you bring in Jesus' 2nd coming, trying to derail the issue.

We had better be thankful that God has mercy and does this for us, even though many of us who are save royally mess us, making some very bad choices..


Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

[anime4christ]

Chew on what? A desire to throw out Bible passages? No one said man's will is supreme - but the Bible teaches God's sovereignty AND man's free will. It is not one or the other. Certainly, there is a limit to man's free will; and God can hinder man, stop man, counteract what he does - overturn his evil for good, etc.

I agree, but I will go further to say that, as the Bible says, nothing happens without God's will. So, if we take Joseph's story, for example, I believe it was God's will to move Joseph into Egypt, and it was not merely God turning the evil that his brothers did into good. Instead, I believe that the brothers wanted to do evil to Joseph, and God used that to fulfill His will to move Joseph to Egypt which He had willed before the brothers did the evil. The mere moving of Joseph to Egypt was not evil in itself either, but the brothers' intentions were evil. In that way, God's will was fulfilled in perfect detail and at the same time, God did not do any evil here at all, but the brothers did, and they were responsible for that. Would you agree here, Jerry?

I believe the above view is compatible with the sotoriologies of moderate Calvinism, classical Arminianism, and everything in between, though not everyone who holds to any of those sotoriologies would necessarily have that view.

[Reformation Man35]

1st, I will say this, you have no tact, saying "Chew on this."

Well, Jerry, I didn't mean to offend your delicate senses. I wasn't aware you were so sensative. Do you put aloe vera on your back end too?! lol, I'm totally kidding. Well, we can't always agree on everything. I mean who does? Anyway, no hard feelings Jerry. I still love you as a brother in our Lord Jesus.

[heartstrings]

I agree, but I will go further to say that, as the Bible says, nothing happens without God's will. So, if we take Joseph's story, for example, I believe it was God's will to move Joseph into Egypt, and it was not merely God turning the evil that his brothers did into good. Instead, I believe that the brothers wanted to do evil to Joseph, and God used that to fulfill His will to move Joseph to Egypt which He had willed before the brothers did the evil. The mere moving of Joseph to Egypt was not evil in itself either, but the brothers' intentions were evil. In that way, God's will was fulfilled in perfect detail and at the same time, God did not do any evil here at all, but the brothers did, and they were responsible for that. Would you agree here, Jerry?

I believe the above view is compatible with the sotoriologies of moderate Calvinism, classical Arminianism, and everything in between, though not everyone who holds to any of those sotoriologies would necessarily have that view.

Interesting.......do you have a chapter and verse which states or even implies that "nothing happens without God's will"?

....and....Did God cause the brothers' intentions to be evil?

[JerryNumbers]

Its God's will that all men be saved, but yet with each day that comes there be men dying who will go directly to hell.

So yes, things do happen that are not God's will.

Plus, its God will that no man sin, yet many times each day many men sin, so again, God is not getting His will.

Thanks be He is a God or mercy and grace, and He forces His Self on no one, He only comes in if invited. No, He did not make rOBots out of us as some of you claim.

[Reformation Man35]

Interesting.......do you have a chapter and verse which states or even implies that "nothing happens without God's will"?

....and....Did God cause the brothers' intentions to be evil?

Well, as with classical humanistic theology, one that always seem to get lost in the battle for the will, is that our intentions are bent towards sin. Which apart from salvation, the will is not free according to scripture. Hence we are in bondage to sin is what Paul tells us. So the intentions of the brothers were according to their own will yes. But, we must look at the idea of hardening such is the case with Pharaoh. Has it ever occurred that as in Thessalonians that something is restraining the full intent of evil? And that something is God. Despite if you want to call it the Holy Spirit, the Church etc, God is restraining the full affect of evil upon this planet. So, even then he affects the will of everyone. Don't you think in the cause of Pharaoh, He mainly gave Pharoah over to his own fleshly & evil intentions. Withdrawing HIS hand and giving him over to his lusts as in Romans? So you can't escape Gods will. He is in total control, as much as you want to give power to humans, the bible is entangled with Gods mighty hand. Not mans.

[heartstrings]

If I raised some puppies for the sole purpose of torturing them to death slowly just for the thrill of it, what whould happen to me if I got caught? What do we call folk like that...sadistic?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What am I saying?
I'm saying that, according to Genesis 3:22, even an ungodly reprOBate knows right from wrong. Even a heathen should know that a god who would create some to fry in Hell for the sole purpose of enjoying it, isn't right. So me thinks that anyone who would devise such a wicked, perverted system of belief as TULIP theology, must have a 'darkened' heart because they actually take the name of Jesus Christ and misrepresent his very character. The REAL Lord Jesus of the Bible unselfishly GAVE himself for the whole world, not just a select few. Calvinism has another Jesus, my friends.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

[Reformation Man35]

If I raised some puppies for the sole purpose of torturing them to death slowly just for the thrill of it, what whould happen to me if I got caught? What do we call folk like that...sadistic?

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Heart, I understand your compassion for the lost, yet who are you to say what God can and can not do? God raised Pharaoh for one very purpose. What if God made vessels fitted for destruction, so that he might make know the riches of HIS GLORY on vessels of mercy? Which he had AFORE prepared unto glory. Therefore HE will have Mercy on whom HE chooses to have Mercy. Who are you to question how or for what purpose the Potter has made the Clay? Take a good hard look at the verses above. They are quite clear on who's will is in control.