A few questions on predestination

[anime4christ]

For the record, this is a good example of classical Calvinism, which I do not support in any way: http://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=360 (A rather lengthy read, but worth reading for perspective.)

As demonstrated in that article, from a classical Calvinist's perspective, a moderate Calvinist is not regarded as a Calvinist at all, but more as a classical Arminianist.

The two main differences between moderate Calvinism and classical Arminianism is that moderate Calvinism maintains that God preordained everything, and moderate Calvinism maintains Preservation of the Saints (Eternal Security) as opposed to classical Calvinism's Perseverance of the Saints and Arminianism's Possibility of Apostasy, although Arminius didn't believe a true believer would ever apostatize. Moderate Calvinism, like classical Arminianism, includes free will, as well as God's sovereignty.

The way I see it, IFB theology would fit somewhere in between (though not necessarily being one or the other, as Baptist theology predates Calvinism and Arminianism, AFAIK), with Arminainism's rejection of God predetermining man's free will and moderate Calvinism's Preservation of the Saints. Therefore, like every system other than Calvinism and open theology, IFB doctrine does not attempt to answer the question I posed at the beginning. Am I correct?

[trc123]

All knowing and making it happen as being in "complete control" are two different things.

[anime4christ]

All knowing and making it happen as being in "complete control" are two different things.

The fact that I, as classic Arminians and moderate Calvinists, maintain that man has free will even though it is predetermined before time (not answering the question by whom at this point) means I would have to agree with you (at least on most levels).

Nevertheless, would you like to elaborate? Where do we split that? That is a much smaller issue than the original question, but might be helpful to the discussion because I have the suspicion that we are almost on the same page, but just using terms differently. The only thing it seems we don't agree on, is who ultimately predetermines man's will.

If we start in the material world, everything OBeys the laws of nature (except supernatural events; miracles), and theoretically could be mathematically calculated with absolute precision. All events in the material world are therefore predetermined. The question is, did God just set the material universe to go and it's going as planned according to the laws of nature, or is God actively behind making every part of matter OBey the laws of nature at any given moment, therefore the natural laws are thus supernaturally powered at all times?

When we then go into the immaterial world, where our will resides, it gets more complicated. The spiritual, and immaterial world in general, is not subject to the laws of nature and cannot be currently mathematically calculated by humans. Nevertheless, did God create souls and spirits that run on their own or is He actively powering all life?

Now, I cannot support this notion from Scripture (perhaps someone else can though), but it seems to me that material life is where material meets that which is not material. Given that theory, I believe from the two possibilities I outlined in the previous two paragraphs, the latter is more Scriptural, because the Bible says that our breath is in His hand. Although neither possibility dictate either the Calvinistic or Arminianistic position on who predetermines man's will, the latter leans logically more towards the Calvinistic position. There is of course the possibility of a mix of the two possibilities with the material and immaterial world governed by different laws.

Also, I realize that this last part I wrote goes more into philosophy rather than doctrine and therefore cannot be the base for belief in one doctrine or another, and also I will not take a firm stance on either possibility for fear of speaking wrongly about God as JOB's friends did. However, it would be great if someone could show me if there is a Biblical stance on this issue, since it is somewhat related to the issue outlined in this thread.

[heartstrings]

Who says anyone or anything 'predetermined' man's will? Is that in the Bible?
The Bible says "we...are turned every one to his OWN way"

[anime4christ]

What I mean by predetermined is that God knows ahead of time what everyone will choose, therefore history is already written before it happened, so to speak.

[Wilchbla]

God never predestined anyone to be accept or reject his Son as the Calvinists teach. What God predestined was that those who did excercise their freewill and receive his Son as their Lord and Savior would be adopted and someday end up in the image of his Son. Therefore, predestination does NOT kick in until AFTER we are saved. Read that last sentence again and let it sink in.

[heartstrings]

What I mean by predetermined is that God knows ahead of time what everyone will choose, therefore history is already written before it happened, so to speak.

Read this.........
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Bible says that Lucifer was the "anointed cherub that covereth".
Then it says "until iniquity was FOUND in thee"(Lucifer)
In other words, God made Satan a perfect, sinless being...until the point where he said in his heart "I WILL". At that point Lucifer "despised dominion" (Jude 1-8). That means he HATED God's rule because he wanted to rule instead of God. That HATE made him a murderer. He is also a liar, and the father of it. So, by saying that GOD predetermined these sorry events to happen, is acutally saying that GOD is the FATHER of lying and murdering doesn't it? But that is not the case. Just because God knew from the beginning that some vile child molester would prey on children, torture and murder them, certainly doesn't mean that God planned those historical events from eternity past. God KNOWS what's going to happen because He's God. But remember, "God is LOVE".....and somehow, I just can't imagine LOVE "predetermining" lies and murder.

[Reformation Man35]

Haha, this is a wonderful discussion Anime4Yeshua. The questions you are asking are valid and all the responses are the tired old responses that I am sure you have heard several times. One of the questions that got me thinking was if man's will is free, how can God be Sovereign? That would mean man's will takes precident over the will of God. So which is it? Or are we saying both man and God's will is coequal, making God not all powerful. Then how can anything be determined by God if the choices I'm making today are preventing God from doing His work? Its a bitter pill to swallow when one attempts to walk the line concering this issue of theology. Everybody is entrenched in their side of the issue. What do you think Anime?

[heartstrings]

Not only is Satan a liar and a murderer; but one of his devices is to mock.
He doesn't like it when we expose him for what he is....

The first account of God acknowledging and allowing free will in man is found in Genesis 2:16-17.

[Psalms18_28]

What I mean by predetermined is that God knows ahead of time what everyone will choose, therefore history is already written before it happened, so to speak.

yes, he knows, that's why he planned Christ from the very beginning. He knew people would reject him.

I like to think that the Earth is on God's autopilot under his laws (or scientific laws)...Even though our body work under his laws (that's why it is so easy to study how our body works), sometimes humans can even manipulate scientific laws like being able to grow skin using stem cells. This include how we were made and conceived. We were created by one man and one woman together (DNAs), together creating an unique and individual child, but before we were born, God knew us. There is only one human who was specifically made by Lord himself, and that's Jesus.


But our freewill to accept and reject Christ is of our own.

[Psalms18_28]

Or are we saying both man and God's will is coequal, making God not all powerful.

That's the number one sin most, well all, people commit. They put themselves equal to God. That's why they need to acknowledge they are sinners and they are not above God.

[John81]

If the discussion is about whether God has predestined some for salvation or not then what Satan did or what some child predator does has no bearing. Those would only come into play if one is saying God predistinates everything that happens; that is, that God makes each person do whatever good or bad they do in their lives.

When discussing the verses dealing with God wanting that everyone would be saved we also need to deal with the passages which indicates God knows what will and won't bring people to accept Christ and yet doesn't move in such ways for all people.

Part of our prOBlem is that we don't fully take the fact that God's ways are above our ways and that God doesn't reveal all things to us seriously. We often think we have an intimate enough knowledge, understanding and closeness to God to know all things with certainty.

Consider Pharoah of the exodus. Did God harden his heart as Scripture says or not?

What about instances where Scripture says God caused fear to fall upon certain peoples or where God says He caused folks to look with favor upon someone? Did God directly bring these things to be or not?

We shouldn't be so simplistic in our view of some things or be so quick to put any particular label upon particular ideas and then either dismiss them or accept them because of the label.

I know most here believe in eternal salvation so I'll use this as an example. There are some who reject eternal salvation based totally because "Calvinists" believe if a person is truly saved they have eternal salvation. This is a totally wrong approach.

[anime4christ]

I'm with John. I believe that God can use free willed humans to achieve His purpose in absolute detail. How that works together? I can't explain. I know the implications of God being in absolute control of everything are rather uncomfortable, but I do not believe they are what they seem. Another prOBlem with removing free will completely is that rOBots don't bring God glory, but only those who have a choice do. So I do believe in free will. The only reason why I don't trust that uncomfortable feeling I get from the implications of God being in absolute control is because of what I see in the Bible.

Three things I see in the Bible that I believe cannot be fully explained with human logic:
1) God preordains thing that will happen and he uses
2) people that by their own will do things to fulfill that purpose and therefore
3) are completely responsible for their actions

There are of course, as well, those who reject God's will and yet fulfill His purpose at the same time. eg. Jesus said that the Pharisees rejected God's will toward them and yet they fulfilled God's purpose in crucifying Jesus.

[Psalms18_28]

yes, Everything has a purpose. God knew they would do this, is why he choose the time and place for Christ.

[anime4christ]

It is however, hard to say that God created everything with a purpose that will be fulfilled in absolute detail, and yet He doesn't bring it about to happen or didn't plan it.

The way I see it is, God is not the author of evil as we define evil for humans.

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. - Genesis 50:20

That verse says that God meant it unto good, what is it? It is the evil that the brothers did do Joseph. Note that He did not make the brothers have the evil desires to first murder, then sell their brother into slavery, but rather He caused Joseph to be moved to Egypt for His purpose even though it caused Joseph and JacOB a lot of grief and pain. I would be very afraid to say that God's hand was not behind the actual moving of Joseph to Egypt though. That would be a fearful thing indeed to be left in the hands of man instead of God during the whole process. So my conclusion is God planned it and brought it about yet did no evil in the process.