A few questions on predestination

[anime4christ]

I understand the implications of having God predetermine everyone's actions, and especially thoughts. However, taking passages such as Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 9:16-17, Proverbs 16:1, and Proverbs 16:9, it seems to me that God does predetermine the actions, though not the thoughts and will, of man.

But if God didn't predetermine the actions of each person, yet they are already predetermined because He knows what they will be before time, then who or what predetermines those actions?

Going further down the Calvinistic road, you could ask the same about man's thoughts, since I'm sure God knows those ahead of time as well, because otherwise it would not be known to God who will be saved, but I don't see God predetermining man's thoughts in the Bible. Therefore it remains a question that prOBably can't be answered here on Earth.

[trc123]

Nothing happens without God either bringing it about or allowing to happen; that's complete control. Not a sparrow drops dead without God causing it or allowing it. Nothing is outside His control.

Can we understand why one woman gets raped while cops nab another rapist before he reaches the next woman? Most often, no. However, Scripture assures us that God is in control working His ultimate will through it all.

God doesn't cause evil but evil (which includes wicked people as well as the devil and his demons) is under the authority of God. Not a single evil act can be committed without God allowing it. We can trust that whatever evil God allows there is some good purpose that will be worked out through it. The book of JOB gives an extended view of such.

John, by your eventual definition even you admit God is not in "complete control" by his own design and will.

[anime4christ]

Why can't God be in absolute control of every detail yet give people free will in a way that is beyond our comprehension? If God can see time in a non-linear fashion which we will never be able to explain while here on Earth, why do we have to think if we can't explain free will and predestination with our logic, that one or the other must be not true? Just a thought on the limit of our logic.

[John81]

John, by your eventual definition even you admit God is not in "complete control" by his own design and will.

Not sure how you get to that. Nothing happens without God allowing it or outright bringing it about.

If Fred decides he's going to steal all the goods in a warehouse but God prevents Him from doing so, God is in control. If Joe decides he's going to steal all the goods in the same warehouse and God allows him to, God is in control.

[John81]

Why can't God be in absolute control of every detail yet give people free will in a way that is beyond our comprehension? If God can see time in a non-linear fashion which we will never be able to explain while here on Earth, why do we have to think if we can't explain free will and predestination with our logic, that one or the other must be not true? Just a thought on the limit of our logic.

Points long argued! We know from Scripture that God knows what will bring one to repentance and what won't. Jesus Himself condemned some Jews by pointing out that if the miracles He had performed among them had been done in other cities that they would have repented.

Scripture also tells us in various places that certain individuals were created for tasks; both good and bad. We know that God has prepared works for each of us before we were even born.

We know that before we were even born Christ died for our sins. Not only did Christ die for our sins but He also felt our sins; and this before we were even born!

God is the beginning and the end, He knows the beginning from the end, He is timeless.

Can we fathom all this and fully grasp these things and put it all down in logical prose? God says no.

[heartstrings]

Well, I'm not talking only about Romans 8, though it leads me to the first question I asked. I can quote passages talking about God knowing and even planning the lives of individuals before they happened. That's not the point though; whether or not the passages refer to groups or individuals, my three original questions still stand unanswered. This is where I am at right now, I've gone past the groups and individuals thing. Since both are mentioned in the Bible, I don't think it's useful to discuss which one it is. I want to know how to answer to the three above questions or if say, open theology were correct, how can those three questions be shown as too presumptuous and what could you replace them with in that case?

I think it's very useful to know that God "predestinated" "THEM (a group} to be "conformed to the image of His Son" since the passage never says that God "predestinated" individuals.

[John81]

I think it's very useful to know that God "predestinated" "THEM (a group} to be "conformed to the image of His Son" since the passage never says that God "predestinated" individuals.

A group is made up of individuals. If a group can be said to have been predestinated that would imply that the individuals themselves were predestinated otherwise that particular group could be very different.

[Psalms18_28]

If we hold predestination, are we really denying God's foreknowledge skills?

I ask calvinists this question, and I haven't got an answer. If one deny the TULIP theory, does it make them less likely "saved", even though they accept Christ as their Savior? I still want to know which is the gospel: Christ or the TULIP theory.

[JerryNumbers]

If we hold predestination, are we really denying God's foreknowledge skills?

I ask calvinists this question, and I haven't got an answer. If one deny the TULIP theory, does it make them less likely "saved", even though they accept Christ as their Savior? I still want to know which is the gospel: Christ or the TULIP theory.

Christ, its not the flower!

[anime4christ]

Christ, its not the flower!

lol. amen! When either side starts accusing the other of preaching another god that doesn't exist or claim that those on the other side of the issue are not saved, they forget that it's not Calvinism or Arminianism or Whateverism that saves, but Jesus is the One who saves.

[JerryNumbers]

The Deadly Flower by Dr. Gregory Baker

Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinism by Curtis Hutson


The 1st book I listed above, describe my feeling about Calvinism, I am not bashful on this subject, I think it plain false teachings, and its deadly, and its not of the Bible.

[anime4christ]

In the end, though this discussion went on for a long time, nOBody actually answered the original question head on. The answer to the question doesn't automatically make anyone Calvinist and neither is the question one that assumes Calvinism is true. Calvinism is just the only theology that attempts to answer the question. All other systems leave the question open. In fact, it is Arminianism and the other systems that raise the question.

Assuming that the Bible does teach that history is predetermined because God knows it ahead of time, who or what predetermined it?

Another way to look at is this:
How does God create and know each person's will without predetermining it in some way?
If this question can be answered with something other than "that is impossible", then we will have a valid case against predestination (not necessarily Calvinism, since I have stated earlier that I am not discussing Calvinism in its entirety right now).

My answer to that question is: He is God, He can do things we cannot comprehend. That said, nothing can be done without God, so He still had to predetermine history in some way, because nothing or no one else could.

Why does everyone sidestep the original question though? If the question is presumptuous, why can't anyone address that directly either?

[anime4christ]

The Deadly Flower by Dr. Gregory Baker

Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinism by Curtis Hutson


The 1st book I listed above, describe my feeling about Calvinism, I am not bashful on this subject, I think it plain false teachings, and its deadly, and its not of the Bible.

Reading... so far I didn't come across anything new there. Let me clarify that I'm not a classical Calvinist proponent in any way, I just have some questions on predestination and God's absolute sovereignty, which still haven't been addressed head-on.

[Psalms18_28]

A4C... Calvinism have been debated for thousands of years. I don't think you'll get anywhere new.

I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminianism (<----I don't believe we can lose salvation at all) and It is very possible to be neither.

[JerryNumbers]

Don't we all know that God is all knowing, that He knows everything there is to know? That nothing ever occurred to Him.

Ec 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ec 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

That is anything we happen to learn, its new only to us, its not new to God

Like as stated before about Jesus being slain before the foundation of the world. God knew that would happen before the world was formed, before He created Adam out of the dust of the ground, before Eve committed the 1st sin in the garden. For He already knew that mankind would sin and would be in the need of a Savior.

Knowing what a person will do, does not mean that God the Father predestinated that person to do all the things he does.

And if God the Father predestinate everyone to do everything they are doing, that is predestinate them to sin, them God predestinate all sin and therefore it is He that is responsible for the man who raped and murdered the young girl. that is responsible for all sin man has done. God is no responsible for sin, for there is no sin in Him.

Yes, God knew before hand who would accept Jesus as their Savior, who would reject Jesus as Savior. But its quite clear from the Bible, He never predestinate anyone to hell, that he did not create no human that was doomed to hell from their birth, its everyone's very own choice.

Also, if God predestinated all that we do, them we are nothing more than rOBots, going about doing those things which Hs predestinate us to do. NO, we chose to sin using our very own free will.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Yes, its true, Jesus is standing their knocking, whosoever, any man, any person, will open that door and invite Him in, He will come in and saved them from the depths of hell. The man or woman who goes to hell has no one to blame but their self.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

No, if God predetermined that certain people were born to go to hell from birth, them all of those would have an excuse, yet the Bible is clear, no one has an excuse for going to hell.