A few questions on predestination

[heartstrings]

So, um, it seems to me that we've danced by this one issue but nOBody wanted to mention it explicitly: Do some people here really believe that Calvinists are unsaved, killing evangelism, and leading people to hell? Because the guy "reproving" me believes exactly that, and it seems some here almost agree with him, but don't state it very OBviously. So, I just want to get a straight up answer to this. Do some here truly believe that (automatically applying that to me as well) or did I get the wrong message?

I thought I made that clear earlier.
I believe that if you are saved but have been taught this false doctrine and still believe it out of simple lack of knowledge, and you seek the truth, God will reveal the truth to you. But if you wilfully teach it to others, you are a false teacher.

[John81]

I thought I made that clear earlier.
I believe that if you are saved but have been taught this false doctrine and still believe it out of simple lack of knowledge, and you seek the truth, God will reveal the truth to you. But if you wilfully teach it to others, you are a false teacher.

What of those who were saved, taught non-Calvinism (Arminianism?) and yet over the years studying the Word they come to hold a more Calvinist view? Our assoicate pastor was telling me a couple weeks ago about a friend of his from college he hadn't heard from in five years, a man who was very anti-Calvinist, emailed him and said that after all these years of studying the subject and arguing against Calvinism the Lord has shown him the truth of Calvinism.

[John81]

God truly foreKNOWS everything. He KNOWS everything that will happen because He is the Omniscient God who "inhabiteth eternity": but He does NOT "foreORDAIN" everything. Maybe this is too hard for many to grasp. Calvinists seem to think that since God KNOWS what's going to happen in the future, He surely had to have planned that future event in order to do so. Now if God FOREORDAINED that John81 would burn in Hell for all eternity for God's glory, then why would God go against His own will?....
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Use one scripture at the beginning of a sermon, then 'expound' upon it with your own perception of it(in this case, false)then claim that the misinterpretation that you have just proclaimed was "the word of God"....and tell people to "take it up with God". I've heard that one before. A commonly used ploy to make it all sound legitimate.

Does Scripture itself proclaim that God knows all things but ordains none?

You skipped over a great deal so I'll ask a question. Spurgeon seems to put forth the idea that for some, such as Paul, God specifically brings them to salvation, but for most God draws them with the Gospel and it's up to them whether they accept or reject salvation in Christ.

Is this basically Spurgeons take in this sermon?

[anime4christ]

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. - Acts 4:27-28

Why is it that only some bad things that happen are pre-ordained by God and others are not? Isn't that inconsistent?

[John81]

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. - Acts 4:27-28

Why is it that only some bad things that happen are pre-ordained by God and others are not? Isn't that inconsistent?

What about John the Baptist?

[Reformation Man35]

What about John the Baptist?

Hmm...what about him my friend? Share your insight.

[anime4christ]

Your use of John six forty four to try to show that man does not have choice in salvation is a moot point since scripture also says this: John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


That single verse is enough to show that God draws everyone to himself. It also shows they can resist that draw if they wish or else everyone would be saved.

I find a few major prOBlems with the understanding that John 12:32 nullifies John 6:44. First, it would make Jesus' statement redundant and unnecessary. Second, in John 6:44, He said that no one can come except the FATHER draw him; in John 12:32, He said that HE (Jesus, the Son) will draw all to Himself. The only way you could put these two verses together is if you are a modalist; it is OBvious that these two verses are talking about different things then. Third, the context is completely different and is talking about Jesus being glorified in His death on the cross in John 12, not necessarily about the elect who belong to God, which is what Jesus is talking about in John 6.

[Wilchbla]

Does anyone not agree with the perseverance of the saints? John 3:16. Can everlasting life mean we can be lost? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It's "preservation of the saints". Two totally different doctrines.

[Wilchbla]

NOBody is preordained of God to go anyplace although he knows who will end up where. What is preordained is our conformity to the image of Christ and adoption as sons once we have accepted Christ. We are not preordained to be saved or lost. Folks keep getting the cart before the horse. Predestination doesn't kick in until AFTER you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

[anime4christ]

NOBody is preordained of God to go anyplace although he knows who will end up where. What is preordained is our conformity to the image of Christ and adoption as sons once we have accepted Christ. We are not preordained to be saved or lost. Folks keep getting the cart before the horse. Predestination doesn't kick in until AFTER you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

1) The prOBlem with maintaining an Arminian view with an omnipotent and omniscient God is that you will still have to admit that God predetermined how things would go if He is all powerful and all knowing, and knowing how things would happen, left them as they were instead of exercising His power to change them. That would mean that He ultimately determined they would happen as they did and do. While that makes God look like He passively predetermined everything, you have to take the logic further to admit that His creation was active, therefore his decree was active as well. So, logically you are back at square one and must choose: either God did preordain and decree everything or He is not omniscient and omnipotent. Well, there is one more option that I will admit Calvinists use as well (but usually in cases where the Bible says so); declare it a mystery and drop trying to figure it out altogether.

2) You did not address the issue I brought up in my previous post, but started talking about something else.

[Invicta]

You use the name 'Calvinist' for those who adhere to the 'Doctrines of Grace.' Today, those who follow those doctrines usually call themselves 'Reformed.' In the past they called themselves 'Particular Baptists'

There are basically two types of Baptist, those believing in Particular and those in General redemption. There are many variations in both. I have been reading a history of Baptists in Norfolk, England. The first baptists there were Particular baptists, the general Baptists came later from outside. Although the General Baptists in that county sent out the first two missionaries from that area, the Particular Baptists sent out many later. They were by far the largest and sent out the most. They were also very active in Evangelism and education of the poor. Towards the end of the 19th century, the particular Baptists became more liberal, by opening the communion table to all who believed.

[John81]

I found this doing a quick search:

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith was written by Particular Baptists, who held to a Calvinistic Soteriology in England to give a formal expression of their Christian faith from a Baptist perspective. This confession, like The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) and the Savoy Declaration (1658), was written by Puritans who were concerned that their particular church organisation reflect what they perceived to be Biblical teaching.

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Philadelphia Confession of Faith (1742)

6. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such OBjects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.

(Rom. 1;24-26, 28, 11:7, 8; Deut. 29:4; Matt. 13:12; Deut. 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Ps. 81:11, 12; 2 Thess. 2:10-12; Exod. 8:15, 32; Isa. 6:9, 10; 1 Pet. 2:7, 8)

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http://baptistcenter.com/confessions.html

Particular Baptist Statements of Faith (PDF)

The First London Confession (1644)

The Second London Confession (1677; 1688-89)

The Standard Confession (1660)

The New Hampshire Baptist Confession of Faith (1833)

Philadelphia Confession of Faith (1742)

Spurgeon's Puritan Catechism (Phil Johnson)

Circular Letters of Baptists (Baptist History Homepage)

Historic Church Documents (Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics)

The Westminster Confession of Faith (Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics)