Is the IFB the only true church?

[JerryNumbers]

I am not going to get into this very deep, as I agree with the statement that a lot of this is border lining on mockery!! Club, Garbage, arrogance. Not statements that seem open for discussion, but rather "I am going to hammer the truth into you until you see the light." I agree one side is right and one is wrong, but we need to be willing to try to see where the other side is coming from or else it is a lecture, not a discussion!!

Now I am going to answer your second verse as I think it gives a little light to the "Brider" side. I do not believe I would fit your definniton of brider, as I believe there are saved people within most any "christian" faith despite the teachings of their "church."

Eph. 5:23-32, “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. [24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. [25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. [29] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: [32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”

Now note verse 24. He says the church is subject to Christ. Subject, now you can look up the definition of that word, but the sixth definition in websters 1828 is Obedient. Now how does this fit? How obedient is the part of your definition of church when they fall down before the pope and kiss his ring in worship? How obedient is that part of your church when they get out their idol (Exod 20 3-6) and bow down before it and pray unto it??? Are they being obedient?? The verse continues by telling the earthly wives to be so toward their husbands. Now looking at scripture it seems that idoliotry is looked upon by God the same as we would look at adultry! So my question would be how many of us guys would be excited about our up coming wedding as we set and watch our bride flirting and/or worse with all the other guys she meets? Or even if it is only one other guy, the guy she loved before we met. For that is exactly what you are discribing when you put the RC in as part of the bride.

You said "These are the verses that describe what it means to be in the Bride of Christ." I believe you left at least one out. Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
I for one am saved by the blood of the lamb. The only thing I had to do with that is I accepted the gift put before me. I did not make myself saved in any way whatsoever. I am to sinful to have done so. But the bride has made herself ready. Did she save herself? NO!! She has been obedient in such a way as to be an example to earthly wives as how to be toward their husbands. She has been pure. She has made herself ready!!! But she has done so AFTER salvation!!

Now for a side point, before you say I am one of those who feel they are of an elite class. I question whether I will have the pleasure of being a part of the bride. I know my sinful nature. I know I should be closer to him than I am. I know I slip an fall into sin. But He is the one who will judge who is pure to be in his bride. Also I do not believe the baptist name hanging over a door means anything towards being a part of the bride. from my understanding I feel there will be many who have been called by other names who hold true to his word. I do not believe John the baptist was "A baptist". He was called baptist the same as I am called carpenter.

You gave me a thought, and how some might look at us.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel when this subject comes up there be some that think we that post on this side of this issue thinks that we are saying that we are more worthy than they are. That is no true at all. If anyone feels that I came off that way, I apologize to you.

There is only one thing I can say for myself, and that is I fall short of the glory of God, and when judged Jesus will determine my rewards and or lack of rewards, just as He will do with every other person.

I may be the lowest person in heaven, yet wherever I am placed in heaven I will be happy, knowing that Jesus made a perfect judgment. And even if I get one or more rewards, that will be due to the glory of Jesus only, not me, I will have nothing whatsoever to glory in.

Its all about Jesus and the way that we can know Him is though the Bible, and its by the Bible that we can follow Him closely, and it will be by the Words of the Bible that we will be judged, and the Bible is what we have been proclaiming, nothing else.

[coc333]

No, your universal church doctrine is the doctrine and teaching of the RCC, its not of the Bible. I've told you this many time, go check it out, it comes form them, they be the ones that bought it into this world.

Annie can keep the flame out, and not make statements such as, your arrogance is showing.

By the way, the meaning of Arrogance: haughtiness, high-handedness, lordliness, contemptuousness, disdainfulness, pride, imperiousness. And up to the point Annie made that statement Marty had made no reply to her that had any of that within them.

I might add because of a statement made by another poster, churches do not save, Jesus does. so what Marty proclaims is not about being saved.

Yet I might add, I suppose there be saved people in many churches, yet those that are saved, are saved in spite of the teachings of the churches, for in all actuallity, there be few churches that teach one is saved by grace though faith. The majority of churches, as I have before stated, teaches salvation by works, church membership.


I might add, go back and study the Bible starting out with John the Baptist and baptizing. You will find that Jesus' Churches are made up of baptized believers. That is people who have been both saved and baptized.

Its not made up of both baptized and un-baptized believers, the un-baptized believers have chosen not to follow Christ and are not members of none of His Churches.

Plus, Jesus did not seek just anyone to baptize Him, He sought a person that had authority from God, and the same holds true today.
Here is some helps on the subject.

Jerry,

At the risk of upsetting anyone and once again being told to leave....listen to what you just said. You just stated that there are no un-baptized believers in the church. Who is in the church? Acts 2:47 tells us that it is the saved. Please, think about what you have just admitted?

[heartstrings]

The thief on the cross is going to be part of the Body of Christ...the Church; he will be there rejoicing with every other true believer when Jesus is crowned King of Kings and :Lord of Lords. He was not "baptized" with water...he was baptized with the Holy Ghost into the body of Christ..

COC33, if you believe that you must be baptized with water to make it to Heaven, you are probably lost. I would junk that and put my trust in Jesus alone.

[DennisD]

The thief on the cross is going to be part of the Body of Christ...the Church; he will be there rejoicing with every other true believer when Jesus is crowned King of Kings and :Lord of Lords. He was not "baptized" with water...he was baptized with the Holy Ghost into the body of Christ..

COC33, if you believe that you must be baptized with water to make it to Heaven, you are probably lost. I would junk that and put my trust in Jesus alone.

I could be mistaken but it seemed to me coc333 was saying the opposite and felt Jerry was saying you had to be baptized.

[dantheman2]

The thief on the cross is going to be part of the Body of Christ...the Church; he will be there rejoicing with every other true believer when Jesus is crowned King of Kings and :Lord of Lords. He was not "baptized" with water...he was baptized with the Holy Ghost into the body of Christ..

COC33, if you believe that you must be baptized with water to make it to Heaven, you are probably lost. I would junk that and put my trust in Jesus alone.

The thief on the cross is no more part of the body of Christ...the church than is John the Baptist. They will both be in heaven but will not be part of the church.

[coc333]

I could be mistaken but it seemed to me coc333 was saying the opposite and felt Jerry was saying you had to be baptized.

Actually DennisD, you are only half mistaken. Clearly the Bible states that one must be baptized (immersed in water) in order to be saved and thus added to the church. Jerry, whether he actually believes it or not (and from previous post and discussions with him I do not believe that he does) has admitted that one must do so. Since every saved person in the Christian age is added to the church upon being saved (Acts 2:47) and there are no unsaved believers in the church then one must be baptized in order to be saved. Simple logic. We can even put it in a clear and simple format.

A. Every saved person in the Christian age is added to the church (Acts 2:47) B. No unbaptized believer will be in the church C. therefore one must be baptized in order to be saved. If both presesis are true and they are then the conclusion is true. Jerry has admitted what he has repeatedly denied.

[DennisD]

Actually DennisD, you are only half mistaken. Clearly the Bible states that one must be baptized (immersed in water) in order to be saved and thus added to the church. Jerry, whether he actually believes it or not (and from previous post and discussions with him I do not believe that he does) has admitted that one must do so. Since every saved person in the Christian age is added to the church upon being saved (Acts 2:47) and there are no unsaved believers in the church then one must be baptized in order to be saved. Simple logic. We can even put it in a clear and simple format.

A. Every saved person in the Christian age is added to the church (Acts 2:47) B. No unbaptized believer will be in the church C. therefore one must be baptized in order to be saved. If both presesis are true and they are then the conclusion is true. Jerry has admitted what he has repeatedly denied.

I see, I believe Jerry was stating the bride will be those that have followed the commandment to be baptized and are in a doctrinal sound Church (member). But, he has always stated those that have called on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved are going to Heaven (just not part of the bride). Edited March 23, 2011 by DennisD

[Covenanter]

The thief on the cross is going to be part of the Body of Christ...the Church; he will be there rejoicing with every other true believer when Jesus is crowned King of Kings and :Lord of Lords. He was not "baptized" with water...he was baptized with the Holy Ghost into the body of Christ..

That makes a point that seems to be missing from the discussion.

What is saving baptism?

1Cr 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Baptism as immersion is inferred from such Scriptures as Rom. 6, but the procedure for baptism is never given in Scripture. Many uses of "baptism" in Scripture are incompatible with immersion, or immersion in water.

e.g. Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Anybody can be baptised in water, confessing their sin, but true baptism requires a renewed heart, new birth & the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Baptism as a believer is the expression & witness of our faith. Countless people down the ages have had a living faith in Christ, yet have not been baptised by immersion. The KJV translators among them. Are we trusting a Bible translated by the unsaved?


COC33, if you believe that you must be baptized with water to make it to Heaven, you are probably lost. I would junk that and put my trust in Jesus alone.

[Covenanter]

I see, I believe Jerry was stating the bride will be those that have followed the commandment to be baptized and are in a doctrinal sound Church (member). But, he has always stated those that have called on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved are going to Heaven (just not part of the bride).

I find that extraordinary.

[DennisD]

I find that extraordinary.

Well, I don't want to put words in his mouth so allow him to explain...just how I understood it.

I know many people that believe that way, they are fine Christians. I don't feel this doctrine really marginalizes their testimony or life as a Christian...so it's really never been a big deal in my opinion if people believe that way.

[John81]

A person can be saved and unbaptized and not part of a local church. They may exist, but I don't know of any good church that doesn't require that members be baptized.

[JerryNumbers]

Jerry,

At the risk of upsetting anyone and once again being told to leave....listen to what you just said. You just stated that there are no un-baptized believers in the church. Who is in the church? Acts 2:47 tells us that it is the saved. Please, think about what you have just admitted?

That is exactly what I stated, no getting mad. I try my very best not to get mad about what someone else believes, I try to respect their opinion and their right to their opinion. If one gets mad, they will probably do something or say something they wish they had not, and while one is mad they close their heart to learning.

No one can follow Christ until 1st, they have been saved, 2nd followed Him in baptized. From the start of Jesus' church, the one He started Him Self, the church at Jerusalem, it was made up of only baptized believers.

That said, baptizing does not saved, one is 1st saved, them baptized.

Some of my fellow Baptist brothers and sister seem to teach that the person who has been saved, yet rejects baptizing, rejects Jesus' Churches, has all the benefits of the one who has done as Jesus has commandment them to.

No, in that day many will lose all rewards, one of the reason is they rejected being baptized, they rejected Jesus local church, they will be in heaven, only they will lose rewards for not having obeyed Jesus.

At the risk of making you mad, and I surety don't want to make you mad, understand that the church your a part of teaches one has to be baptized into the church of Christ, or they will not be in heaven in that day. Now I have learned that by studying what church of Christ teachers have written, but not only that, I have heard church of Christ pastors proclaim that from their pulpit. I have also had church of Christ friends tell me the very same thing.

I might add, I never try to make anyone mad, yet it seems when it comes to the Bible, there be many that if they disagree with you, they get mad, even sassy and rude. As I stated, I do have some friends of the c of C, we are all well aware that we are in disagreement on this subject. We highly respect each others opinion while they think I'm wrong, and I think they are wrong. But sometimes it seem my fellow brothers and sister are never as nice as they are.

For instants. One Baptist fellow stated about this topic, that I was declaring that he would be waiting on tables during the marriage supper while I was setting at the table. I never made that claim, he said that trying to insult me. I am only proclaiming what the Bible teaches, and Jesus will decided on who is where, and what rewards a person gets or loses. After all, its all about Him, and Him alone. Me, I fall way to short of the glory of God and I am very unworthy of the grace He has offered.


1Co 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Yes, its clear that in that day He will do the judging, and it will be a just judgment, if I'm only a janitor, I will be happy for ever in heaven.

We've got an instruction book, in it we are told everything we need to follow Jesus, and by it we will all be judge.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and received not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Yes, all of us will be judge according to this wonderful "Old Black Book." And we all will be without an excuse.

[coc333]

I see, I believe Jerry was stating the bride will be those that have followed the commandment to be baptized and are in a doctrinal sound Church (member). But, he has always stated those that have called on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved are going to Heaven (just not part of the bride).

Dennis, correct me if I am wrong but I believe that you are saying that one can be saved and not be in the church/bride. Acts 2:47 tells us that the person who is saved is added to the church. You can't be saved and not be in the church.

[coc333]

That is exactly what I stated, no getting mad. I try my very best not to get mad about what someone else believes, I try to respect their opinion and their right to their opinion. If one gets mad, they will probably do something or say something they wish they had not, and while one is mad they close their heart to learning.

No one can follow Christ until 1st, they have been saved, 2nd followed Him in baptized. From the start of Jesus' church, the one He started Him Self, the church at Jerusalem, it was made up of only baptized believers.

That said, baptizing does not saved, one is 1st saved, them baptized.

Some of my fellow Baptist brothers and sister seem to teach that the person who has been saved, yet rejects baptizing, rejects Jesus' Churches, has all the benefits of the one who has done as Jesus has commandment them to.

No, in that day many will lose all rewards, one of the reason is they rejected being baptized, they rejected Jesus local church, they will be in heaven, only they will lose rewards for not having obeyed Jesus.

At the risk of making you mad, and I surety don't want to make you mad, understand that the church your a part of teaches one has to be baptized into the church of Christ, or they will not be in heaven in that day. Now I have learned that by studying what church of Christ teachers have written, but not only that, I have heard church of Christ pastors proclaim that from their pulpit. I have also had church of Christ friends tell me the very same thing.

I might add, I never try to make anyone mad, yet it seems when it comes to the Bible, there be many that if they disagree with you, they get mad, even sassy and rude. As I stated, I do have some friends of the c of C, we are all well aware that we are in disagreement on this subject. We highly respect each others opinion while they think I'm wrong, and I think they are wrong. But sometimes it seem my fellow brothers and sister are never as nice as they are.

For instants. One Baptist fellow stated about this topic, that I was declaring that he would be waiting on tables during the marriage supper while I was setting at the table. I never made that claim, he said that trying to insult me. I am only proclaiming what the Bible teaches, and Jesus will decided on who is where, and what rewards a person gets or loses. After all, its all about Him, and Him alone. Me, I fall way to short of the glory of God and I am very unworthy of the grace He has offered.


1Co 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Yes, its clear that in that day He will do the judging, and it will be a just judgment, if I'm only a janitor, I will be happy for ever in heaven.

We've got an instruction book, in it we are told everything we need to follow Jesus, and by it we will all be judge.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and received not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Yes, all of us will be judge according to this wonderful "Old Black Book." And we all will be without an excuse.

Jerry,

You have not made me mad at all. I agree that it is useless to get mad about the Bible. The only thing I will say is that you seem to be implying that the church of Christ is a denomination and that to "join" that denomination one must be baptized. This is a misunderstanding of what we teach.

The Bible teaches that one is baptized into the body of Christ/church of Christ/bride of Christ (Acts 2:37-38, 41, 47; Gal 3:27, Acts 22:16). Do I preach this (by the way I am a preacher not a pastor...they are not the same thing)? Yes, I do preach it because it is what the Word of God says.

By your own statement, you admit that one must be baptized in order to be saved. You say that it is 1. get saved 2. be baptized 3. added to the church, but this does not work since one is saved and added to the church at the same time (Acts 2:47) thus if one must be baptized in order to be in the church then one must be baptized to be saved.

[DennisD]

Dennis, correct me if I am wrong but I believe that you are saying that one can be saved and not be in the church/bride. Acts 2:47 tells us that the person who is saved is added to the church. You can't be saved and not be in the church.

You can be saved without being a member of a church. We just interpret "church" differently I suppose.

I understand what you are saying, I don't really have much of an opinion on "who" the bride is. Is it all that are saved? Is it all that are following the commandants (and saved) of Christ? Is is all that are only members of a Church (local, visible, body of believers) that hold to a certain doctrine? It's not something that has really given me pause to think on it.

But, yes I do know people that believe the bride of Christ are those that are saved and also follow Biblical doctrine. They separate the bride from saved individuals. So, while all the saved are going to Heaven...they don't believe all the saved are part of the bride. I'm just telling you what I've heard, not that I necessarily believe it. But, I don't think it's a fools argument either...I think it has some good points to it. Just as all saved are part of the bride has good points as well. Edited March 24, 2011 by DennisD