Speaking in tongues

[Covenanter]

I have an ongoing "discussion" of another forum. Please discuss my arguments that tongues have ceased. My points are blue, & the pro arguments in black.

[Covenanter]

You can vote for more than one option.

[kevinmiller]

1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

These verses have nothing to do with the cessation of tongues, unless the prophecy in Revelation and all knowledge is done away with, as well. It was simply making a point that nothing lasts forever. It would be wrong to read too much into it in order to prop up a belief that's not in the Bible. The point is, prophecies, tongues and knowledge eventually becomes useless, it doesn't last. Love is the only thing that lasts forever. Nothing more, nothing less.

Paul would not have given instructions as to the proper use of tongues if he was going to say in the same letter that tongues are finished.

I actually heard a cool story from one of my friends this past week when we were talking about tongues. He said there was a pastor who was speaking in tongues and all of the churchmembers just thought he was crazy or something. Even he didn't know what he was saying. Then one day some people from Nigeria visited the church and told the people he was speaking Nigerian. God had given him the gift of that language even though it appeared to be gibberish to the rest of the congregation.

[1Timothy115]

These verses have nothing to do with the cessation of tongues, unless the prophecy in Revelation and all knowledge is done away with, as well. It was simply making a point that nothing lasts forever. It would be wrong to read too much into it in order to prop up a belief that's not in the Bible. The point is, prophecies, tongues and knowledge eventually becomes useless, it doesn't last. Love is the only thing that lasts forever. Nothing more, nothing less.

Paul would not have given instructions as to the proper use of tongues if he was going to say in the same letter that tongues are finished.

I actually heard a cool story from one of my friends this past week when we were talking about tongues. He said there was a pastor who was speaking in tongues and all of the churchmembers just thought he was crazy or something. Even he didn't know what he was saying. Then one day some people from Nigeria visited the church and told the people he was speaking Nigerian. God had given him the gift of that language even though it appeared to be gibberish to the rest of the congregation.

Do they record their services?

[Covenanter]

Paul would not have given instructions as to the proper use of tongues if he was going to say in the same letter that tongues are finished.

They OBviously hadn't finished YET. But they would.


I actually heard a cool story from one of my friends this past week when we were talking about tongues. He said there was a pastor who was speaking in tongues and all of the churchmembers just thought he was crazy or something. Even he didn't know what he was saying. Then one day some people from Nigeria visited the church and told the people he was speaking Nigerian. God had given him the gift of that language even though it appeared to be gibberish to the rest of the congregation.

That's quite an 'urban legend' with different languages quoted whenever the story is retold.

Wycliffe are wasting their time doing all that translation work...

I do not deny the power of the Holy Spirit to repeat the Pentecost experience, but in that case, they heard in their native language, though the Apostles did not necessarily speak in those languages. That would be marvellous for missionaries.

[kevinmiller]

Do they record their services?

How should I know?

[kevinmiller]

They OBviously hadn't finished YET. But they would.

According to who, exactly?

Wycliffe are wasting their time doing all that translation work...

That's some good evidence to base our Bible beliefs on, for sure.

I do not deny the power of the Holy Spirit to repeat the Pentecost experience, but in that case, they heard in their native language, though the Apostles did not necessarily speak in those languages. That would be marvellous for missionaries.

It's OBviously not a common occurrence. Especially in our society where faith is almost non-existent, even amongst the vast majority of Christians. We are raised in a culture of skepticism and we bend the Bible accordingly.

[ptwild]

According to who, exactly?


That's some good evidence to base our Bible beliefs on, for sure.


It's OBviously not a common occurrence. Especially in our society where faith is almost non-existent, even amongst the vast majority of Christians. We are raised in a culture of skepticism and we bend the Bible accordingly.

This is a good point. So many Christians (good Christians at that) no longer believe in miracles. There is this belief out there that God all of a sudden stopped "working his magic" at some point in the past. That there is no further revelation, or understanding. I just wander how Christians a thousand years from now will look at the way we considered God. It's so wierd.

[HappyChristian]

Tongues were a sign to the Jews.

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

-

And it wasn't the gibberish that passes for tongues today. It was well understood by those who heard it.

The parameter for tongues is set forth in 1 Corinthians - it is to be interpreted by someone in the congregation (in other words - someone who understands that language would be there) and it is for the purpose of edifying. That isn't what happens in churches today. Today it's nonsense noise.

My sister "spoke in tongues" many years ago. The "pastor" knocked her on the head and she went into a trance, began moving around the room (totally under the control of something else) and began making noises that they claimed were tongues. When she came out of the trance, she wanted to hug me - and the pastor came up to knock me in the head. I backed off and he got the message not to touch me. At the same time a couple of my cousins had been "speaking in tongues," got finished, looked around and said that was fun, let's do it again, and started their chanting again. Edifying? No. Confusion? You betcha. THAT is the norm, or very near it, in churches that teach tongues. There is no-one truly ministered to - it's just emotional hype that doesn't last long. In many cases, and I believe my sister was one, it is demonic control.

I've heard all kinds of stories of people who were supposedly in services and heard their language coming out of the preacher's mouth, while the rest of the people heard English. I think a lot of it is urban legend (and, Kevin, if indeed the Nigerian story is true, it doesn't fit with God's parameters that the language would continue over time with no one understanding it until the Nigerians came in. There was no-one being edified, and no one who could translate until they came...to be genuine scriptural tongues in a church service, it would have to be at that service), but I don't think it's totally impossible. God is a God of miracles, and if that's the way a person will be able to hear the gospel, I do believe it CAN happen. I don't believe it does very often, though.

I knew a man who was in Mexico ministering. He knew no Spanish. But one day, he was able to speak Spanish all during the time he was ministering. And everyone just gave glory to the Lord about it. I believe this happened, because this man was a man of integrity. But it wasn't from God. This man was a Mormon, and he was spreading the lies of the Latter Day Saints.

[kevinmiller]

And it wasn't the gibberish that passes for tongues today. It was well understood by those who heard it.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

If he prays in an unknown tongue, he says that he doesn't have any idea what he's saying. I guess it must've been all Greek to him...er, gibberish.

Today it's nonsense noise.

I think this is a knee-jerk reaction that is common amongst conservative Christians. Some dancing is immoral, so no more dancing. Some secular music is wrong so no more secular music. Some versions have errors so only the KJV. Some people speak in tongues throughout a whole service while writing on the floor so no more tongues. All those TV guys fake their miracles so God must not do miracles anymore. The Anglicans hooked up with the Catholics so no more ecumenism. Etc., etc.

and, Kevin, if indeed the Nigerian story is true, it doesn't fit with God's parameters that the language would continue over time with no one understanding it until the Nigerians came in.

Apparently the Christians in Paul's time were doing it because Paul saw the need to address their excessive use of tongues.

I knew a man who was in Mexico ministering. He knew no Spanish. But one day, he was able to speak Spanish all during the time he was ministering. And everyone just gave glory to the Lord about it. I believe this happened, because this man was a man of integrity. But it wasn't from God. This man was a Mormon, and he was spreading the lies of the Latter Day Saints.

What's sad is that Christians today give Satan so much power and do so much to limit God's power. Satan can make people speak in tongues, he can wreck your car, he can give you an illness, he can make supernatural things happen. But as soon as you start talking about God doing those things, it becomes "oh that doesn't happen anymore."

[kevinmiller]

(meant to say "writhing" on the floor)

[HappyChristian]

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

If he prays in an unknown tongue, he says that he doesn't have any idea what he's saying. I guess it must've been all Greek to him...er, gibberish.
Read on to where he sets guidelines, Kevin.

I think this is a knee-jerk reaction that is common amongst conservative Christians. Some dancing is immoral, so no more dancing. Some secular music is wrong so no more secular music. Some versions have errors so only the KJV. Some people speak in tongues throughout a whole service while writing on the floor so no more tongues. All those TV guys fake their miracles so God must not do miracles anymore. The Anglicans hooked up with the Catholics so no more ecumenism. Etc., etc.
This is a knee-jerk reaction to what I said. Read the rest of the post, Kevin. I've had many years actual experience with the tongues movement. I had a grandfather who was a Pentecostal preacher. I know wherewith I speak. Today, in those churches that practice tongues (and note that in my earlier post I specified that) it is NONSENSE NOISE. Stop trying to make what I said apply to the nonsense you wrote. Thank you.

Apparently the Christians in Paul's time were doing it because Paul saw the need to address their excessive use of tongues.
Uh, yeah - that's why the parameters were set.

What's sad is that Christians today give Satan so much power and do so much to limit God's power. Satan can make people speak in tongues, he can wreck your car, he can give you an illness, he can make supernatural things happen. But as soon as you start talking about God doing those things, it becomes "oh that doesn't happen anymore." What's truly sad is that you don't read posts thoroughly and that you jump to erronious conclusions often. I never said anything about limiting God's power. Why is it okay for you to talk about an anecdotal story but not me. Funny, in your story a friend told you about something he heard. In mine, my friend was the one involved. My friend actually spoke in Spanish, without knowing a word of it. But I know it wasn't from God - and, unless Mormonism is all of the sudden scriptural, you have to admit it wasn't either. God isn't going to grant the gift of tongues to someone to minister false doctrine to people. Duh.

No, Kevin, what's sad is your absolute disdain of most things IFB and "conservative" Christianity, so that you have to jab at people constantly. And that you don't thoroughly read before you post. I said in my post that I believe scriptural tongues can happen today - I don't believe they do as much as we hear stories about it. God can do anything He wants to, in any way He desires. But He won't go against His Word. If there are tongues, they will follow God's parameters. If the tongues don't, they are not of God.

[Psalms18_28]

what's sad is your absolute disdain of most things IFB and "conservative" Christianity<-------- I do that about "hearing" high standards... most people don't like it that I criticize but it isn't going to change them and I accept that (except my situation isn't a choice, but I can't expect everyone to lower their standards for me).

[kevinmiller]

Read on to where he sets guidelines, Kevin.

My point was that it's possible, not that it's profitable.

This is a knee-jerk reaction to what I said. Read the rest of the post, Kevin. I've had many years actual experience with the tongues movement. I had a grandfather who was a Pentecostal preacher. I know wherewith I speak. Today, in those churches that practice tongues (and note that in my earlier post I specified that) it is NONSENSE NOISE. Stop trying to make what I said apply to the nonsense you wrote. Thank you.

Much of my post was not directed at you. I was speaking more, in general. That's why I said "conservative Christians" and I only said common, not universal. And many churches believe in tongues but do not practice it often. The church I went to in Korea believed in it but I only heard it happen once during the year that I went there.

Uh, yeah - that's why the parameters were set.

Again, just saying it's possible, not that it's profitable.

What's truly sad is that you don't read posts thoroughly and that you jump to erronious conclusions often. I never said anything about limiting God's power. Why is it okay for you to talk about an anecdotal story but not me. Funny, in your story a friend told you about something he heard. In mine, my friend was the one involved. My friend actually spoke in Spanish, without knowing a word of it. But I know it wasn't from God - and, unless Mormonism is all of the sudden scriptural, you have to admit it wasn't either. God isn't going to grant the gift of tongues to someone to minister false doctrine to people. Duh.

I'm not sure how I didn't read the post properly. I wasn't referring to you when I said "Christians today." I was speaking in general terms and I'm not sure why you read it otherwise. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my intentions. I was merely taking what you said about Satan causing him to speak in tongues(and I think that's very possible) and using that to make a broader statement, because most people would prOBably believe you but would not believe someone who said that they spoke in tongues while speaking of Christ.

No, Kevin, what's sad is your absolute disdain of most things IFB and "conservative" Christianity, so that you have to jab at people constantly. And that you don't thoroughly read before you post. I said in my post that I believe scriptural tongues can happen today - I don't believe they do as much as we hear stories about it. God can do anything He wants to, in any way He desires. But He won't go against His Word. If there are tongues, they will follow God's parameters. If the tongues don't, they are not of God.

I jab at people constantly?
It's amazing the extent to which people on here overlook the "jabbing" that goes on by the IFB people on here. I can't say that I'm surprised because it's been going on since day 1 of my membership here. I don't know if you were here back when I first joined but I was IFB then and had prOBlems with both Jerry's even at that time because I stood up against their verbal assaults on those who dared to express an opinion outside the IFB view. Therefore, I was branded as one of them and assaulted, as well. Now that I am "one of them," not much has changed.

I don't have a prOBlem with you saying they're possible and applaud you for that stand. Again, my post was meant to be more of general in nature and I'm sorry you didn't see that. It wasn't meant to be an attack on you, or anyone else for that matter.

[HappyChristian]

My point was that it's possible, not that it's profitable.


Much of my post was not directed at you. I was speaking more, in general. That's why I said "conservative Christians" and I only said common, not universal. And many churches believe in tongues but do not practice it often. The church I went to in Korea believed in it but I only heard it happen once during the year that I went there.


Again, just saying it's possible, not that it's profitable.


I'm not sure how I didn't read the post properly. I wasn't referring to you when I said "Christians today." I was speaking in general terms and I'm not sure why you read it otherwise. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my intentions. I was merely taking what you said about Satan causing him to speak in tongues(and I think that's very possible) and using that to make a broader statement, because most people would prOBably believe you but would not believe someone who said that they spoke in tongues while speaking of Christ.


I jab at people constantly?
It's amazing the extent to which people on here overlook the "jabbing" that goes on by the IFB people on here. I can't say that I'm surprised because it's been going on since day 1 of my membership here. I don't know if you were here back when I first joined but I was IFB then and had prOBlems with both Jerry's even at that time because I stood up against their verbal assaults on those who dared to express an opinion outside the IFB view. Therefore, I was branded as one of them and assaulted, as well. Now that I am "one of them," not much has changed.

I don't have a prOBlem with you saying they're possible and applaud you for that stand. Again, my post was meant to be more of general in nature and I'm sorry you didn't see that. It wasn't meant to be an attack on you, or anyone else for that matter.

I'm sorry if I misread your intentions, Kevin. But since you were quoting me, and only partially, I think it would be expected that I would assume you were speaking directly to me (most certainly the "knee-jerk reaction" was intended for me!).

As to the jabbing, my friend, you may not realize this, but you are most certainly making more and more derogative comments about IFB. You may not be IFB any longer, but you know the majority of us on this board are, and that in fact this is an IFB board. So, inuendos and little comments made to belittle IFB are taken personally. Think about that some, please. With all my heart I'm not saying that to make you angry or feel picked on. You need to expect people to disagree with you often here, since you are no longer IFB. But the IFB (and conservative Christian - simply a synonym for IFB) comments need to stop!