Can a woman....

[JerryNumbers]

Your correct John, that is one reason that from time to time I will preach on this subject.

That said, there be some men who are nOT going to take the position God has for them. Maybe for some of them its a man thing, they feel standing up for God as God wants us to, stating they depend on God, will make them look like weaklings. Them perhaps some have nOT been saved.

Ro

[John81]

That's right Jerry. And the reason some men view church or doing things in church as making one look weak, or something for the women, is because for the past several decades they've seen nOThing but women doing these things.

This is a cycle we need to break. Along with the difficulty in trying to get men to step up and do these things is the problem with trying to get the women to step back and make room for the men.

In some churches, some of those active women carry a lOT of power now and some pastors are fearful of upsetting them.

[chev1958]

Well, it was bound to happen -- a topic on which I disagree with Pastorj. Having been a choir director, I feel that it's a leadership position. The choir director generally decides the music, and thus has to "direct" the members of the choir in the performance of that music.

From Webster's 1828:

DIRECT, v.t. [L.]

1. To point or aim in a straight line, towards a place or object; as, to direct an arrow or a piece of ordnance; to direct the eye; to direct a course or flight.
2. To point; to show the right road or course; as, he directed me to the left hand road.
3. To regulate; to guide or lead; to govern; to cause to proceed in a particular manner; as, to direct the affairs of a nation. Wisdom is profitable to direct. Ecclesiastes 10.
4. To prescribe a course; to mark out a way. Job 37.
5. To order; to instruct; to point out a course of proceeding, with authority; to command. But direct is a softer term than command.

All those definitions imply authority and leadership. A choir is part of the formal worship service, therefore 2 TimOThy applies. If there are men in the choir, then the choir director should be male. To say that a pastor giving that authority to a woman is OK is somewhat disingenuous. If there's no OTher man available, then the pastor becomes the music/choir director. That's what's done at our church now.

Regarding males in Sunday School, almost every church I've been involved with had women teaching boys under the age of 13. At 13, the boys moved into the teenager group, usually taught by a husband-and-wife team. Again, that's my experience - nOThing in Scripture defines when boys become men, but doesn't Jewish tradition dictate that boys become men at 13?

[holster]

Well, it was bound to happen -- a topic on which I disagree with Pastorj. Having been a choir director, I feel that it's a leadership position. The choir director generally decides the music, and thus has to "direct" the members of the choir in the performance of that music.

hummm.. well, guess you disagree with me too as I also stated that the choir director does nOT have to be a leadership position.

The good pastor should "lead" the direction of the choir without having to be the choir director. The pastor should have such a relationship with the choir director that they work together well and the director knows what the pastor wants. Even if the director gets "out of hand" once or twice the pastor can still correct the situation, thus, he (the pastor) is still leading... Even with a Male director the pastor will still have to do this guiding and leading....

[Revelation3:20]

hummm.. well, guess you disagree with me too as I also stated that the choir director does nOT have to be a leadership position.

The good pastor should "lead" the direction of the choir without having to be the choir director. The pastor should have such a relationship with the choir director that they work together well and the director knows what the pastor wants. Even if the director gets "out of hand" once or twice the pastor can still correct the situation, thus, he (the pastor) is still leading... Even with a Male director the pastor will still have to do this guiding and leading....

Everything you say about the what the relationship between the choir director and the pastor should be I would more or less agree with... however replace "choir director" with "associate pastor" and most everything you say would still be true. I doubt you would be comfortable with that, although it could be an extension of the same line of thinking. Just because someone is under authority at some level does nOT mean they are nOT in a leadership position.

The centurion said to Jesus:

"Matthew 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to anOTher, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it."

Just because he himself was "under authority" did nOT mean he was nOT a leader. That is applicable to this situation too.

[holster]

Just because he himself was "under authority" did nOT mean he was nOT a leader. That is applicable to this situation too.

Well... I guess when you get right down to every member should be a "Leader." Great guests properly, demonstrate proper attitude, etc. etc. So perhaps our churches should be men only?

I'm having fun of course, but just where does the "leader" label cease?

[Revelation3:20]

Well... I guess when you get right down to every member should be a "Leader." Great guests properly, demonstrate proper attitude, etc. etc. So perhaps our churches should be men only?

I'm having fun of course, but just where does the "leader" label cease?

There is only a problem with a woman being in a leadership position if she is in some form of authority over men. It is nOT Gods design for for woman to be in authority positions over men. Going against that design will stress the typical woman out as she tries to properly fill a role she was nOT designed to fill, and it will stress out a typical man under her as he reacts negatively to feminine leadership because he instinctively know it isn't how things are supposed to be. A typical woman will then probably perceive that negative reaction and typically will then try to "back off" because she wants please the men which will then be seen as weak leadership by them and that will irritate them too. On the OTher hand if she doesn't back off the base issue of the mens instinctive discomfort with a "bossy" lady will still remain. It is a no win situation for anyone regardless of how talented the woman may be. Men respect and honor feminine, ladylike women the most and a womans talents are respected too as long as they are nOT seen as diminishing her feminine status. I think nearly all normal women want to be considered feminine and appreciated for that a lOT more than they want to be considered good leaders of men. However nOT everyone sees the two are mutually exclusive. A woman who is exercising a leadership role over men is nearly always perceived as being bossy and unladylike(though the degree varies) and is disliked and disrespected for it to some extent while a man who may be doing exactly the same thing is usually perceived as a good leader and is respected for it. A male choir director who makes the choir go over and over a piece and keeps correcting little mistakes may be seen as a good director who wants the choir to be at their best. A woman doing the same thing is far more likely to be seen as an irritating control freak by the men and while if they are polite and Godly they will keep it to themselves, if they are nOT they will complain, be intentionally difficult, and make snide remarks about it to one anOTher. That bad feeling may do the lady an injustice(or it might be a reaction to a real issue) but either way it causes problems. Churches have problems easily enough as it is so there is no point in giving the devil tools that make it even easier to stir up discord.

If men remain masculine and fulfill their natural roles and woman remain feminine and fulfill their natural roles then the men respect the women more, the women respect the men more, everyone of bOTh genders is a lOT happier, and the church gets along better.


That is just the practical issues of women in authority over men within the church with no mention of the biblical directives against it.

[holster]

Rev3:20 - Very good observations!

[Pastorj]

1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie nOT a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; nOT with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer nOT a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was nOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 NOTwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Here is the scripture we are discussing.

NOTice the context:
Written to a preacher
Dealing with the preaching ministry (Chapter 3 - He makes it clear that men were to be preachers)
They did nOT have choirs back then
Vs 11 - Let woman learn in silence (Again dealing with teaching)
vs. 12a - Don't let women teach
vs. 12b - Don't let women usurp authority over men

The context of this passage is dealing with the preaching of God's Word.

From Webster's 1828 Dictionary.
Usurp
USURP', v.t. s as z. [L. usurpo.]

To seize and hold in possession by force or without right; as, to usurp a throne; to usurp the prerogatives of the crown; to usurp power. To usurp the right of a patron, is to oust or dispossess him.

Vice sometimes usurps the place of virtue.

Doesn't sound like a Choir director. The individual is given the authority by the pastor. He/she is nOT doing anything that the pastor doesn't allow.

For those who like the Greek:
G831
??????????
authenteo?
ow-then-teh'-o
From a compound of G846 and ??????? hente?s (obsolete; a worker); to act of oneself, that is, (figuratively) dominate: - usurp authority over.

NOTice again that a choir director does nOT act of oneself. They must follow what the pastor wants.

A woman cannOT Preach/Teach, Pastor or be a Deacon. I'd like to see a scriptural basis why she could nOT be a choir director.



Explain the passage above. NOTice it does nOT say a woman can't direct. It says she cannOT "Usurp" authority. If you want to ban women from being a choir director, you must have a Bible basis for your belief and it isn't this passage unless you see something that I don't

[Revelation3:20]

Explain the passage above. NOTice it does nOT say a woman can't direct. It says she cannOT "Usurp" authority. If you want to ban women from being a choir director, you must have a Bible basis for your belief and it isn't this passage unless you see something that I don't

"1 TimOThy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer nOT a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was nOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

I am nOT sure how you are reading this. For a woman to "Usurp authority over the man" means the same thing as to be in authority over a man. The word "Usurp" is there as an expression that it is nOT the God ordained order for a woman to be in authority over a man and any time that she is in authority over a man she is taking a position she should nOT rightfully take. That is the only reading that makes sense when "learn in silence with all subjection" and "but to be in silence"(which greek word also carries the idea of doing ones own work such as where it is found as "quietness" in 2Th 3:12) is put in contrast with "usurp authority over the man" and reasoning that he gives afterward "And Adam was nOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.".

[Pastorj]

I gave the English and Greek definitions and that is nOT what Usurp means

[Revelation3:20]

I gave the English and Greek definitions and that is nOT what Usurp means

your english definition of the word usurp: "To seize and hold in possession by force or without right"

I said:

"The word "Usurp" is there as an expression that it is nOT the God ordained order for a woman to be in authority over a man and any time that she is in authority over a man she is taking a position she should nOT rightfully take."

I fail to see the difference. If your saying what I think you may be trying to say the wording of scripture would be more like this: "But I suffer nOT a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority FROM A man" which would mean she should nOT take authority away from a man. Instead it actually reads: "But I suffer nOT a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority OVER THE man" which means a woman should nOT take a position of authority over any adult male.

[John81]

your english definition of the word usurp: "To seize and hold in possession by force or without right"

I said:

"The word "Usurp" is there as an expression that it is nOT the God ordained order for a woman to be in authority over a man and any time that she is in authority over a man she is taking a position she should nOT rightfully take."

I fail to see the difference. If your saying what I think you may be trying to say the wording of scripture would be more like this: "But I suffer nOT a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority FROM A man" which would mean she should nOT take authority away from a man. Instead it actually reads: "But I suffer nOT a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority OVER THE man" which means a woman should nOT take a position of authority over any adult male.

Do you believe this applies to the church only or to all areas of life?

[chev1958]

I'll sneak in here and say "church only" in this context. However, OTher Scriptures address the home.

[Pastorj]

I would agree with Chevy that it is the church only in this passage.